But who gets the remote!?

I have to agree with this. It isnt just the women who are hurt by hurtful things being said. Seems we all have to pay the price for either what we have said or someone else has said to them.

Remember if you dont want it said to you DONT say it to them.

Based on current events in my life, this is one of the most insightful things I've ever read.

Without a ton of detail, the woman I'm dating comes from a past she's not proud of. She never talked about it until I pressed her to take our relationship a step further. She freaked out, wanted to break things off. Took a while to figure out the why and what of that. She told me she wasn't relationship material and never would be.

Never knew anyone who was afraid of love, or honesty for that matter. Totally foreign ideas because I grew up being loved 24/7 and praised for honesty. For her, genetics and childhood programming and, later, addiction along with human stupidity created circumstances most people would find impossible to do well in without professional help. She's not prone to allow that as an explanation for her past actions. I've got no problem holding her responsible for herself but there are also things outside our control. She owns her actions, past and present. I see and hear it on a daily basis. Might not have been comfortable trusting her if I'd met her, say, 15 years ago. Today I'd trust her with my life. Knowing her gives me a different perspective on the things Bliss mentions in her post. My attitude, expectation, perspective and the ways I self examine have changed a lot in the last 6 months.

Lack of double standard or emotional manipulation takes the legs out from under the family of origin model my girl has in her head. She has to work on accepting that she's not going to be penalized for existing, let alone for having needs. Peeling away that layer of crap made me pretty excited for her and for us but it turned out she was even more reluctant to move forward in our relationship after that. Almost didn't take things to the stage we're at now because she didn't know how to accept or function in a healthy environment. Confused me until I started educating myself. Learned about PTSD from her therapist. Learned about life where you're not penalized for needing something or having expectations is foreign to too many people, most of them women apparently. I had some pretty hard core opinions about honesty before I met my girl. Some lofty opinions of myself too as it turns out. Being invited to go with her to therapy and several in depth discussions with the therapist about the ramifications of PTSD gave me a new understanding of "honesty".

I agree with Bliss. We believe a lot of things about ourselves and tell ourselves a lot of things too. So if you don't know the truth, how do you know you're telling it? Abiding by it? Perpetuating it? And if the truth poses a threat, even just a perceived one, how do know you will speak it? I'll be damned if I can judge someone for lying to keep safe if I've never been penalized for telling the truth. Wouldn't have said that a year ago. Without a change in perspective I'd have said honesty was telling the truth 100% of the time. Discussions with her therapist has taught me that intimacy and honesty live in layers. Some people have layers that won't ever get exposure no matter how much safety or encouragement is offered so they're always going to be "lying" in one way or another if you're judging based on the "always tell the truth" model. Does that make them bad people or does it mean you don't get the whole truth? Would you get the whole truth if you found the right door and knocked on it in a way they can understand or trust?

The day her therapist told me there are people who have no clue how to recognize honesty or trustworthiness in themselves let alone in others I was blown away. Who doesn't know if they're being honest? Worse, people who don't know who or how to trust usually have no idea what love looks like when it's given. Idea made me sick to my stomach. Can't imagine what kind of hell it is to not to know what honesty or security or love looks like or to be afraid of any of it. Got to be an effing nightmare. How can I judge anybody who's world looks like that? If they're not being accountable maybe. But otherwise, I just don't know.

It's pretty easy to judge or to have expectations and such. Habit, perception, attitude, beliefs, whatever I want to call it leads me to judge all the time. Get to pat myself on the back for it too because I pride myself on being an honest man. (Aren't I just great!) Sharing this experience opened my eyes to things I never thought about before meeting my girl. Judgment is easy with family and friends backing you about how right you are and how wrong someone else is. Biggest lesson for me was considering how I might make it hard for someone to tell me the truth. My judgement and attitude might make intimacy or honesty a terrifying thing for someone with different perspective or experience, family model, etc. I always say I hold people responsible for themselves and that people should be honest no matter what. Now I wonder just how honest I really am and what honesty looks like for people who aren't me. Most important thing I learned from her therapist was when he said that people who claim they're honest 100% of the time are lying through their teeth. Made me laugh at the time. Gave me something to think about later.

I'm not sure if I came up with this terminology or if I ran into it somewhere, but I do believe there's a "relationship black hole" down which at least some of each party's efforts disappears. So I think it's possible for each party to feel like they are doing more of the work. I try to be mindful of the relationship black hole - that not everything I'd like received will be received and not everything sent my way is something I can appreciate or receive or even notice.

As stated earlier though - I'm not the best at relationships.

Hold hands...
Good, now do it when you are talking about the hard stuff.

Don't just say your words and consider the message sent. Circumstances and temperament don't always allow people to absorb what you're saying when you're saying it. Speak your peace slowly and with as much attention to tone as you can muster. If warning bells go off as you're saying something, slow down, back up, stop, say "Let me try to get back on track before I go further." Whatever you have to do to get the right words out in the best way, do it. Don't set someone up in order to tear them down. Don't share opinions and epiphanies hoping for an ego boost in return. Spend energy on the content of the message rather than the gift wrap or how good you look to yourself while you deliver it.

Listen to what you're saying. What you would think if someone approached you with the same message or delivered it in the same tone? When people share hard things, especially if you don't like what they have to say, ask yourself what kind of effort it cost them to share the truth specifically with you? What's it like to face your expression and attitude? What's it like to approach you with bad news or a hard decision? The ability or intention to put yourself in another person's place isn't the same as actually doing it.

What makes anyone worth an investment of vulnerability and trust? Anybody can talk about who they are. Most do so enthusiastically. How many put equal effort into how they go about being who they say they are or how the practice of being themselves impacts others? Everyone has the right an opinion and to be themselves in a genuine way. Doesn't mean we're rewarding anyone by the expression. Best we can hope for is that being true to ourselves encourages someone else to do likewise. Everything else is a crap shoot.

Love
 

Love yourself completely, in a non ego led narcissistic way.
When you believe you are not loveable then this projects onto others in the form of fear and judgemental behaviour.
Have faith in self love, have faith you are loveble, have faith you are worth it . . because you are . . . .
From there love her like you love yourself and give her the space to breathe and freedom to be . . . . . :2butch:

When experiencing an angry moment, hold that moment in your mind and ask yourself "When was the first time this situation presented itself? " It's an old button. Find it. Heal it. Enlist the aid of trustworthy allies to help if needed.

thank you
 

I read every word.
it gave me a lot to think about as well
thank you and Bliss for such candor.

:bunchflowers: You are very welcome.

ive said this many times and I will say it again

communication , honesty and trust are the 3 keys to make a relationship work if you truly want it too work

I admit there were many times I shutted myself down in a relationship and not said what my faults or problems or worries were , im guilty of that , well I think we all are pretty much .


I need to think on more of this thread and will return '

have fun together
take time to have a conversation everyday, even if you just touch base on the days events
maintain respect for each other
don't stop doing the little things that sparked the fire

Always listen and let the other person finish, then talk!

Femmes are always right!