There is so much more I want to say, but I really need to think more about how to say it. I agree with those here that are speaking up as butch women, and a few others on this thread about how things go down in threads. Yes, I have seen the bashing going on about Lesbians, it's just pure hatred if you ask me. No one should have to endure that kinda crap from within the community, no matter who they are, what they are, blah blah blah, etc etc etc. I'll post more as my thoughts are better gathered.:deepthoughts:
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Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:
"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice." (From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.) |
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Perhaps some examples will prove helpful in this respect. First, I have seen threads getting, what appears to be out of hand, with female/women folk being backed into corners by both non-female/women and femme women who dont like their views and opinions about whatever the topic may be. This attacking behavior will be allowed to continue until such time as the female/woman starts fighting back using the same tactics. Then, I see a moderator step in and warn ONLY the female/woman. There is no warning given to others. There is no general, this type of behavior is not acceptable, everybody knock it off. That, to me is sexist and misogynistic. The only people I have seen directly confront non-female/women is other non-female/women. Then the behavior seems to cease and order is restored. I have seen femmes, especially those in relationships with non-female/women, come rushing to the defense of non female/women in a discussion. It feels like females/women are expected to hold their own but non-female/women are unable to do so? I have had females/women/butches/lesbians agree with some of my more controversal views and outspokenness in private. Yet in public, they are reluctant to do so. It feels like sometimes folks feel they are have to behave like they are walking on eggshells when all they are doing is standing up for their femaleness/womanness/butchness/lesbianism. I have felt I am being told I am a second class citizen when I have stood up for my female/woman/butch/lesbian identity. It is as tho I am supposed to downplay it in order for someone who identifies differently not to feel excluded. I have seen butch women present an idea that will have femme women picking at their bones. But, if the same idea is presented by a non-female/woman....it is open for discussion and elaboration. I have seen non-female/women refer to women as chicks. Excuse me? I find this behavior odd and disturbing and dismissive and sexist and misogynistic and homophobic. |
progress instead of pontification is a lovely thing...thanks for all of the good reading
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I just gotta say as one of those femme's who comes into ALL threads regarding gender.. Even when I was not partnered up with anyone of any gender.
Just sayin' |
off to find the super dooper magnifying glass so I can read what Beau has been posting...........
Beau my friend....laughing.....larger type size please......... |
THANK YOU!!
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Damn, I wish I could attend! I believe that the honest and real conversations were begun at the Oakland 09' conference. Not without pain, but with the willingness to break through the BS and stop hiding from one another. Collaboration is the operative term, for sure and the key to forming effective coalitions. Had to edit to add- when will the members that most of this conversation needs to be with, join in? I always feel like we end up preaching to the choir.... and the choir is representative of various identifications. |
Dapper? Dapper? Are you still here? I know your intent was not bad in starting this thread. It wasn't a crazy request even.
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Foggy Day
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Does this :yeahthat: make any sense? |
Question for anybody who would like to respond....
I have read through this thread a couple of times and can honestly say I am lost as to how the OP's request of:
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The assertion that attitudes and behaviors are less favorable towards women-identified butches and more favorable towards male-identified butches confuses me since the start of this site, I saw the woman-identified butch celebrated, not degraded. A perfect example is the thread http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ht=butch+women Thanks.... |
I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other
Has turned into A) a dis on women And B) A celebration of women If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought There's more types of feminism There's more ways to be queer And there's more ways to ID than woman Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own, Dylan |
Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?
That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members. I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it. |
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Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.
P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me. :) |
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This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women. Apparently you don't like the responses. I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women. |
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Dylan |
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You are welcome and thanks to Met- I was going nuts trying to find it again. I honestly think there are many things stated in it that do address the female-bodied butch who does not include woman as part of their identity and has information from members that goes to Dapper's request without bringing sexism along with it. |
Originally Posted by Dylan
I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other Has turned into A) a dis on women And B) A celebration of women If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought There's more types of feminism There's more ways to be queer And there's more ways to ID than woman Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own, Dylan Dylan, Thank you for providing us with a perfect example of what women/lesbians have been referring to in this thread. You want us to accept and respect all the differences that make up our community. But when women/lesbians stand up for themselves (guess what, we matter too) you respond with the most dismissive, rude, crude, profane filled, disrespectful, sexist, tirade I have heard in decades. But I am supposed to respect you? Even tho you don’t respect me or treat me or speak to me in a respectful manner? Hate to tell you this honey but it’s a 2 way street. And I am not one of those women/lesbians who is intimidated by sexist rhetoric suitable for the 1960’s. Your post was rude and offensive. And I think you owe some people an apology. |
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I almost equate this to "I recognize others but I don't want to be lost in the shuffle either please". I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to stand up and let their voice be heard as is; that it is neither wrong or right but the way they are, the way we all are, the diverseness of "we" make our community that much more greater. |
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