I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead.

We live in a country (USA) where we have certain freedoms and privileges. We dont always understand the mindset of what other cultures and religions uphold as more important. We have generations of people that were forced to marry or in prearranged marriages because it was necessary for financial or religious reasons. We now have the luxury of choosing our lifemates because we fall in love or we want someone to provide us a good lifestyle,or for whatever our reasons...it is ours to choose. I got to know a Pakistani man here in my barrio that I respect completely. His marriage was prearranged and he just had his 3rd child last year. He has been married to his wife for 15 years. He showed me pictures of the family and he appeared proud of his children. I asked him about his prearranged marriage and having been with his wife that long I asked him when he had fallen in love with her. He looked at me strangely and said...."I dont know about love,I have no feelings that way. When I go home to visit my family every two years, I have my own private quarters in the house. I am there to have my needs taken care of and see to it that the children will one day be the providers of the family." The families all live together in one huge home,brothers and their wives and children,parents,grandparents. It is the duty of the first born son to provide for the whole extended family. Ali is the third born son,he had to take on this responsibility because the first and second son were both handicapped. But he takes it with great pride. He has spent more time away from his family than with. So I guess its like that old song of Tina Turner...Whats love got to do with it? Bin Laden, I am sure knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later... and what better way to show his family the greatest reward than the afterlife, with him....the martyr. Maybe this was the only way he knew for showing his family a love greater than anything he was capable of giving?

We don't know anything about his relationships. Assuming it was exploitative reads like cultural stereotyping.

Rockybcn; Bin Ladin was'nt a martyr. What martyr cowers behind his wife? Ghandi was a martyr! Ghandi predicted that Pakistan and India would be at war. His prophesy was 4 wars to be exact. "Each one being worse than the previous". Ghandi even was willing to give up his entire cabinet including Nehru for a Moslem cabinet to keep India united because the Hindu's out-numbered the Moslems.

Folks; I just heard the Telegraph news say that Osama Bin Laden DID NOT cower behind his wife, nor use her as a shield like some cowards.

Wow, I have gotten to post #26 and I had to stop and take a deep breath because I will be 100% honest with you all today, I am sick to my stomach, physically want to throw up sick after reading members of this community use racial slurs such as what's been used.

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

Why is it, that a white human being thinks they are entitled to so much space? Why can't I have the same kind of safe space, the same kind of consideration?

Why is it, that if a POC continues to ask white members of this community to refer to us as this and not this, white members of this community do not listen?

Why is it that white members of this community think they can continue to use racial slurs, tell us (POC) what we can and can't be called, and why is it that no matter how much anyone points it out it continues?

I'm angry, sad, and DISGUSTED and I've only reached post # 26 at all the racism that has been displayed.

I'd like to address this, since it was directed towards me. I can understand why you are upset and rightfully so, and actually I did stop and think whether to post the slurs in their full spelling. I'm sorry that you were upset by it, but I would like to explain my reasoning.

The reason I chose to do so is this: Two people in this thread saw fit to shorten the word Pakistani, which is a well known racial slur for South Asians. I was fairly shocked at seeing people throwing the word around as though it were appropriately interchangeable with "Pakistani" and not even mods seemed phased by the use of that slur despite that in the past this forum has been anti-racist.

And that is why I chose to type out its equivalent among other ethnicities in full: Because it should be shocking to everyone, and just as shocking as terms that I've seen more people here averse to using. There should not be a racial hierarchy any more than there should be a gender hierarchy. It is not "more ok" to use derogatory terms for Pakistanis than it is to use them for the Japanese, Chinese or those who hail from Central and South America. I get the impression that those who used those terms still do not understand that they are on par with the terms I used.

Btw, the reason I put them in quotations was because I was not referring to the people that some use them to refer to, but referring to the slurs themselves as a way of pointing out how inappropriate and shocking it should be to use the Pakistani equivalent, and that calling Pakistanis derogatory terms is EXACTLY on par with the two slurs I used to make my point (and hopefully you did at least see my point). And that is exactly what the post said: that it was just as offensive as those words...so if people are barely going to bat an eye at someone using racial slurs towards Pakistanis, then maybe they need to think about what their reaction might be if the posters had used other slurs.

So please, by all means continue to be disgusted and horrified. In fact, everyone should be, and if you choose to feel that way about me, by all means do so if it means people are going to wake up and realise that South Asians and Arabs are human beings as well and by no means "fair game" for racial slurs just because certain governments and medias wage war on them.

As for my supposed "evolved" state...well, hopefully at least now I've dispelled that thought from your mind. I'm certainly no more or less evolved than any other human being, and this isn't any attempt at false modesty. If this is what you think of me then I'd like to say that I'm a pretty pathetic human being in most cases with little ability to interact with people without turning into a nervous wreck, whether I tend to be a long-winded nervous wreck or not. I thought I'd just add this because I really don't hold any lofty illusions about myself, in fact quite the opposite and I'm just as fallible as anyone else. Perhaps I should have censored those slurs and perhaps it was a mistake not to, but hopefully you can understand why I thought it necessary at the time considering that few actually seemed to be shocked at all by the racial slur for Pakistanis used on the first page by popcorninthesofa and rocky. I thought people should have been shocked by it as much as any other, but perhaps I went about displaying why they should be shocked in the wrong way. Things are always easier in retrospect.

Cheers,

Ender

With all due respect Ender, that is not your word to use, you don't own those words, you certainly do not live them or have to bear them, so using them as an example doesn't make it any better, if you wanted to make a point you could of very easily by explaining without using a word or offering an explanation as you did AFTER the fact. It's harmful, being now that you use them I guarantee some other ass hat will too since *you* thought you could, and YOU can't you are white.... This is what is tiring when a white person still continues to give me an excuse and validation to why they used them, you can't so don't please.

Snow............

Several times in various places on this forum, you (and only you) have suggested it's inappropriate for white folks to use the terms 'red', 'brown', 'yellow' and 'black'. If that is true, why is it ok for you to use the term 'white'? You are not white, so why should you get to use that term? At least that is how I understand your logic.

Just to be clear, I don't give two shits if you call me white, of European descent, honkey, whitey or any other version or slur about white folks. I just don't like what looks and feels like a hypocritical stance. I don't think that is your intention, but it sure looks and feels that way to me.

Toughy AREN'T you assuming I'm not white? or that I have no white brothers, sisters, Dad, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, or better yet the person who raped my mother and hence who I came to be was. Did you ever bother to ask that to yourself?

And why can't I as a POC ask that we not be compared to crayola? Curious Toughy I really am, and once again why is it that when a POC color even if it's Snow again asking why can't it be respected?

Actually, I was thinking that the US asked the Pakistani gov't not to talk about it and to feign ignorance. In previous actions it was blasted all over the news and that took the edge off the action. So it actually makes a lot of sense not to blab decisions as much on the air.

Have you guys looked around our community? How many POC stick around? How many of us are posting and hanging out in here without having to call ism after ism after ism. Does it make us wonder why after some of the posts in here? Or do you just not care?

I would like to clarify that NONE of the racial slurs and covert racial pokes were done in any Red Zone threads. Even then I would think we would not go on there and use them since it's clearly not ok.

Putting in my .02

Until two mins ago I didn't know that the P word was a slur... I've used it because the word Pakistani is just longer to say and type. I assumed it was like Okie and Arkie...

Wiktinary is your friend...

I have a real question that I've been biting my tongue over.

If you have a POC saying please don't refer to POC by their skin color, and then you have another POC stating that they prefer to be called by their skin color then how do you not make a racial statement when talking about race?

Snows request to V to not use skin color vs AJ (Dreadgeeks) request to not be called POC or African American, but Black is what brought this question to mind.

I also thought that everyone was individual and that one person couldn't speak for all people.

I am confused... I'm not being snarky or have a grudge against Snow... I'm just a bit confused about the rules for talking about race on this board.. Do I discount the preferences of my acquaintance in real time to accomidate one persons personal preference?

I can understand one person saying.. Do not refer to me by my color, but It confuses me to have one person speak for all.

I don't post in the racial threads because I really don't want to make a major fux pas while stumbling my way through unlearning white privilage and racism....