well i'll say on my part that i shouldn't have used the word maleness. i don't even like it lol. i certainly didn't mean in any way that a butch is male. i just associated the two words together maleness/masculine. i can understand how some could be offended by either word. i don't have a male sex organ and i do not want a male sex organ. it would probably serve me well to just identify as a woman.

I'm sorry I have never seen a butch wear a dress and heels without it being a costume of some sort. Or they have to wear it for work or military uniform (if they still have to do that).

As far as what makes me butch is something that I feel. It just is. I don't feel comfortable being any other way.

I am feMALE
... I have ovaries and womb
I am a woMAN
... I have breast, I have nursed the baby born
I am MALE ID'ed transgender
... and such I will stay
I am masculine energy and desire...
... within a bio-female form

I am Butch.

To me it has to be how they ID because i do not always feel the energy. i don't. And sometimes (unfortunately), i don't get the mutual recognition and respect that is the most important thing to me. There is something about being recognized as a femme and having someone know what that means. They could be butch or femme. If they are butch, they may be a butch who prefers butches (as long as they don't dislike femmes), and i still feel that recognition, that being at home.

A butch recognizes me as a femme -- and honors that. And as a femme, i recognize who she is, and i honor that. That's the most important thing to me.

YES! I live for that feeling....being seen as I am. *Le sigh of contentment*

I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[QUOTE=Miss Tick;577700]I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.[/QUOTE]

I love this! Thank you Miss Tick :)

this thread has made me rethink the word butch. and i've decided that i will not ever use the word masculine or any word that is considered a synonym/related to the word masculine by most dictionaries, ... when talking about a butch. a traditional word i am throwing out the window, so to speak.

i love this post. <3

it reminds me of an article my partner shared with me recently which talked about the idea that some folks have that transitioning is somehow the "completion" of butchness...so all butch lesbians should essentially want to be trans*/want to be "real men." i've seen this stereotype especially coming from straight folks who misunderstand butch/femme and trans* identities, but i feel like it is related to the masculine/maleness supremacy in our society and the idea that we should all essentially have penis envy and want to be as cool as "real men" (yuck). to me this idea is harmful to everyone, and it misinterprets our queer identities.

(the article is here - it's written by a female butch - if anyone wants to check it out.)

My partner would LOVE this :)

I personally do embrace masculinity as part of myself- female masculinity- but not all butches do.

Thank you aishah for that article. I completely relate to it.

I think genderqueer is a perfectly fine identity for those who resonate with it. It doesn't resonate with me at all. I have experienced times when people try to place butch under some sort of GenderQueer, Transgender and/or Masculine of Center "Umbrella." While I believe the attempts are made with good intentions towards being very inclusive, a big problem I have encountered with this is woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront. At least that has how it has felt to me. It hasn't felt "woman friendly" at all to me when attempts are made to use it as an umbrella term. Now an individual identifying as genderqueer is of course their identity so that is not at all problematic to me.

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe :)

That question makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

Yes I agree with this. I don't believe people go around thinking oh well male id butches are superior. It is that butch gets defined on male terms because male is valued over female- and we get that from being in a misogynistic society.

Also despite all the talk about how horrible "the binary" is people still seem to have a hard time separating masculinity from male or femininity from female . I think it is abundantly clear that there are men with feminine energy and women with masculine energy and plenty of people with a mixture and who don't clear identify with being strictly male or female. Yet we tend to fall back to what we have been raised with. Again, I believe one of the major points of identifying as butch, femme or other gender identities is that we are forging our own paths.

Butch has everything to do with being a lesbian/queer masculine female for me- that is what butch is to me. It isn't for everyone. Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.