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I think she gets butches just fine ;)
"Straight men (my friends included) can and have been friendly to my lovers, but they're often uncomfortable when they're butches. Part of their discomfort is that butches are inherently threatening to most men. Men sense that a butch's masculinity is more appealing to me than theirs, and if she's packin' heat (wielding a dildo), which you know they imagine she is, well, there you have it. My girlfriend Red is a better man than most men. At my cousin's wedding a few weeks back in upstate New York, Red and I were (surprise, surprise) the only lesbians. We were seated at a table with all my cousin's friends—married yuppies. The husbands were totally fascinated by Red. One in particular wanted to know where she got her hair cut, and he admired her flattop repeatedly, saying he wished his looked so good. This experience at the wedding has actually been happening a lot lately, and other butches I know report similar situations. I'm still mystified when straight men seem drawn to Red, but I have a few theories. In some cases, I think that men feel they can have a safe gay interaction with her; they can flirt and be playful (and even talk interior decorating) as if she were another guy because they know she's really a woman. Sometimes men actually identify with her as one of the guys, automatically admitting her into that fraternal order. But when they admire her suit, her wingtips, her hair, they seem to be learning from her what it's like to be a good man. She embodies a study of ideal masculinity, which is all in the details." |
So butch only comes in one flavor and if it's not the right flavor it has an ick factor?
That's how the last couple of posts felt to me... Just because the term doesn't resound with you, doesn't make it less than or geared twards hetros... This piece resounded with me... I got what she was saying... I like butch girls..(Ok, I like butch in just about any flavor, but have a weakness for a big ol butch who is a girl) I happened to be partnered with one... Nothing shocking, nothing cutting edge.. Just a big old hard working, hard fucking, gets called sir, taking up space butch who is also a girl... |
she doesn't "get me" fine at all = different strokes ( Did I not say that?)
even at my youngest (around four) that word was very off-putting and insulting (to me) and I know for certain I am not alone in those thoughts. diversity don't we all get to be who we are? cant we all say what is true (for ourselves) without someone taking offence? |
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Dude if you won't want to be called "girl" then fine, but she wasn't talking TO straight people and was partnered to a butch at the time and words like "ick" and "sting" are pretty loaded terms when there are plenty of butches who are fine with the term girl (some are submissives and some are not).
I think people need to read the entire article before leaping to conclusions about what the author does or doesn't know. http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-10-...masculinity/2/ |
It's my opinion, I own it whether or not you agree or disagree is your opinion and I respect differences. Yes, when she lectures at universities I assume that the majority of the audience are heterosexuals because statistics don't lie. I don't know her personally, but I have met her once briefly. She seems like an okay person. However, I don't think anyone is the authority on any subject regardless of who they think they are. We are all people experiencing our own lives and living our own biases because we are subjective. My partner is one who identifies as female butch and I'm very okay with that. I accept how everyone identifies - who am I to judge. However, I can see how her statements could be interpreted as misogynistic depending upon where you are standing on the spectrum of gender identity. My butch is my boy. I'm sure that Tristan's butch at that time was quite alright with the way she represented her at the time. I'm hoping and quite sure she wasn't speaking of all butches. and yes, I will not retract my statement that heteros probably find her quite intriguing. personally, she bores me and I don't read her stuff or pay for her lectures. She just isn't that interesting to me, but that's my perogative. I'm sure I did not spell that word correctly. hahaha!
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I am sure a lot of people see me as a butch "girl". I, personally, do not. I have never liked being called a girl or liked it when someone says "you go girl" or "girrrrrl, you should have seen....", but that is just me. I am not a boy (depending on who calls me that..:winky:) or a girl, a man or a woman. I am butch, I am A butch....I am what I consider the gray area....or the best of both worlds. :winky:
I don't like being referred to as someone's "girlfriend" in a relationship sense, but if that is how they want to term it, fine. To be really honest, I feel like I have to settle for whatever makes everyone else comfortable, and it is getting tiring....anywho..... I get what Tristan was saying in the article, I really do. I just had to substitute the word "girl" with "butch", and then I was quite happy. :) btw, this is all coming from my ME space, and I am by no means trying to say anyone else should feel this way or that the word "girl" is icky or gross...it's just not for me. |
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Let's not be critical. Let's celebrate that someone took the time to say something (anything) about butches. If it doesn't exactly describe you, well....something else probably does. |
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The piece doesn't feel all that outdated to me. *shrug*
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What have I written that leads you to believe I am an oppressor of women or non feminist butch? signed the un-complex? I think fucking not :] |
I don't know, but someone who id's as femme writing an article about butch masculinity doesn't seem very informative or insightful to me. However, attending a conference called 'butch voices' or something like that where butches speak to their identity and experiences is definitely more insightful coming form the 'first' person perspective. Nothing against Tristan or Red or whomever.. again, just my opinion. The article is dated, it's one person's experience with a butch and it's her perception of that person at the time. I thought it was boring the first time I read it. I'm more interested in hearing butches speak and share their own personal experiences with masculinity and gender fluidity. If I want to know or bond with femmes, I will go to a femme conference. It's my opinion that you have to be living it to be an authority or sell yourself as an authority. I thought the article was hot and belonged in lesbian erotica rather than an article about masculinity in the Voice. I'm just glad that as a community we have evolved since then.
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I didn't see her as trying to sell herself as an authority on masculinity in the article. I don't see the article as revolutionary but it's not boring to me either.
We definitely have a very different opinion on what progress has been made. No comment from me on butch conferences. |
i'm grateful for all of the discussion here...it has all been really thought-provoking.
i love butches. i love reading other femmes' reflections on what they love about butches...as much as i love reading different butches write about what they love about femmes. i'm personally hyperconscious of how i talk about butch identity, because it isn't my identity, and because, like femme identity, it is complex and multifaceted...and different people embody/experience/express it differently. i know many people who would hate to be called "girl"...hell, i am not butch and there are only very specific instances where i am okay with being called "girl." outside of those instances it makes me feel insulted and infantilized. i know my partner would find it really triggering and upsetting for people to call him "girl." at the same time...i respect that others feel differently. hell...that is one of the things i love most about butch identity...that y'all express it in so many different and amazing and hot ways. |
let me try to put it another way
the term girl for many butches,tgs and transmen ( somewhat like me growing up) (not that I am speaking for all of them or everyone please note all the disclaimers) can and does lead to really fucked up and dysphoric feelings. You dont as a kid feel "right", ever. You want to feel "right" but dont know how. So you grow up and look masculine, get secure in yourself because your face is screaming hi I'm a deisel dyke everyday 24/7. Some take it to the next level of comfort to feel "right" aligned etc and transition. Some dont. Its really all about comfort and the details. (To me) |
dude, your description mirrors what i've heard from a lot of masculine id'ed folks in my life...that's why i'm really careful how i use gendered language.
i def agree june that feminine doesn't own beauty! at the same time many masculine id'ed folks in my life have balked when i told them they were beautiful because they are used to "beautiful" being a gendered word (to me it is not). i also change the language when i speak it sometimes because i don't want to trigger or offend people. |
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< desd, who loves the spice girls |
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