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-   -   Dating other femmes exes: what do you think? (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5852)

Martina 10-13-2012 07:12 PM

The thing is that most of the time, I imagine, the parties involved just wouldn't care. So why have a rule? And if, as in Word's case, you are confronted with THE relationship, then most bets are off.

I see no point in a rule. If the question is would I be hurt, probably not. If I were, should it make a difference to the new couple? Probably not. Why should my old pain discourage a potentially good relationship from forming?

I saw mention of something called a femme code. After nearly 30 years of being a femme, I learn there is a code. Who knew? I assume it means don't flirt with a friend's ex -- in this context.

The idea is offensive to me in some ways. The assumption is that femmes need a code, that without it we'd be poaching each other's partners or ex's, that there is a real risk of that kind of behavior without creating norms we have to enforce with our disapproval.

I have never run with large groups of butches and femmes, but I have known many over the years. And I would not characterize femmes this way.

Soft*Silver 10-13-2012 07:17 PM

I have dated exes of friends. I have asked my friends first, if that was ok. Protocol. And courtesy.

the problem I see in the case Anya gave us, was the nastiness of those two flirting in front of her friend. Mean People! It was low and spiteful of them to put on a display that they knew would make Anya's friend uncomfortable. If I did date someone's ex, I would be discrete about affection in front of them until I knew everyone involved was ok with it.

I have had new girlfriends of MY exes parade in front of me. But then, I did that to someone once too, for which i am ashamed now of my past action. We learn through our mistakes or we stay bitches. I learned...

princessbelle 10-13-2012 07:24 PM

I think one thing to keep in mind is the fact that when you are thinking about dating someone, you don't know them all that well. At least on an intimate level.

For instance...i could say i would have dated Bully no matter what, 'cause we are a perfect match. Did i know that at the beginning? Nope. I had no clue. As a matter of fact we were/are complete opposites.

So, it's like well if Bully had dated one of my closest friends i would have never even got to the point of really being close enough to her to find out she was perfect for me. Maybe a sad fact, but in my view it would have had to be that way. Also as someone else pointed out, if you are tight with a femme friend, you would most likely know all the diss about the ex and why they broke up anyway and doubtful they would be attractive to begin with.

I remember in high school my bbf was dating a dude named David. I had a crush and honestly only because his parents owned a Duncan Donuts and it was cool. His family was very wealthy and he always had the coolest tennis shoes. They were always bright orange. Oh how i digress. Anyway, she called me one day and said...you like David i don't. You can have him. He went along with that LOL. Only lasted a couple of weeks. It felt awkward. Even though Terry had said it was ok, it didn't feel ok. So i waved goodbye to the tennis shoes with money.

Of course all situations are different and unique.

It really is personal perception and personal opinions of specific situations for sure.

Again, really interesting thread and i've enjoyed reading everyone's pov.

Martina 10-13-2012 07:34 PM

I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

I don't know. Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.

Angeltoes 10-13-2012 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 674997)
Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.

Are you saying it's weird to not date other femmes and to prefer butches? Not saying I don't find femmes to be *beautiful* but it saddens me to be boxed into the weird category once again because I prefer dating the more masculine end of the spectrum. Cues Radiohead *I'm a creep, I'm a weirdo*....

The_Lady_Snow 10-13-2012 07:53 PM

Bouncing off Martina's post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 674997)
I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

I don't know. Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.



Oh, *I* date all over the queer gender spectrum.




I'm far from hetero so I'm going to disagree with your perception.

It's a buzzkill (for the relationship) if a trusted member of my chosen inner circle dates or makes a move on someone I was in love with or owned.

It's boundary crossing for "me" I don't expect for anyone else but the people I'm allowing in my life to respect these boundaries. It's going to be a well known fact I have these expectations because like with any other relationship my chosen circle will know because in developing the friendship it will be talked about. Friendships are relationships.

I feel it's an individual choice on how one values relationships over nookie.

Medusa 10-13-2012 07:54 PM

Gender is much less important to me when this boundary issue exists than the fact that I want to honor my friendships and maintain loyalty to my heartfriends.

I would feel exactly the same way if say Just_G, whom I consider to be one of my close Butch friends, suddenly started dating Butches, got into a long term relationship, was all in love and shit, and they then split up. I wouldn't date G's ex partner, Butch or Femme or Transman, for the exact same reason I don't date my girlfriend's exes.

The bonds I have with my Femme girlfriends are special though, no doubt, and whether it's het-normative or not, those relationships are a type of bond that is specific, intentional, and some of the most affirming space I have in my life.

princessbelle 10-13-2012 07:55 PM

I don't see heteronormalitive being played out at all. If i were into femmes and i had had a close femme friend i wouldn't date her either. No difference whatsoever.

And besides, all butches are not male identified for sure.

Has nothing to do with ID that i see.

Martina 10-13-2012 08:06 PM

I get the friend thing. I don't get the femme code thing. That strikes me as sexist and heteronormative.

Sexist in the sense that if we didn't claim this great loyalty bond, we'd be out there conniving to get each other's partners.

Heteronormative in grouping like gender people "friends" and the other gender as "potential dates."

Martina 10-13-2012 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angeltoes (Post 675005)
Are you saying it's weird to not date other femmes and to prefer butches?

No. I wasn't saying that.

princessbelle 10-13-2012 08:14 PM

I am trying to understand Martina.

Aren't we talking about dating a friend's ex here?

I don't think anyone is saying they are out to get someone's partner if they aren't a friend.

Exes is the key work i believe.

Again, i don't see anything heteronormalitive about it.

This is the femme zone. So it's femme's talking to other femmes. Never crossed my mind this would be seen as heteronormalitive due to any loyalty to other femme's. I must be missing something.

*Anya* 10-13-2012 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss_Tia (Post 674984)
I have dated exes of friends. I have asked my friends first, if that was ok. Protocol. And courtesy.

the problem I see in the case Anya gave us, was the nastiness of those two flirting in front of her friend. Mean People! It was low and spiteful of them to put on a display that they knew would make Anya's friend uncomfortable. If I did date someone's ex, I would be discrete about affection in front of them until I knew everyone involved was ok with it.

I have had new girlfriends of MY exes parade in front of me. But then, I did that to someone once too, for which i am ashamed now of my past action. We learn through our mistakes or we stay bitches. I learned...

Miss Tia, I appreciate that you read and "got it" exactly as written!

Just simple human kindness. Femme to femme kindness.

Dating the ex of a close, sister-heart femme would not even be in my own personal universe of clear boundaries but neither would hurting a non-close acquaintance by flirting in front a recently dumped or in pain femme.

That is just me.

I get that many of you have a different belief or value system.

We certainly do not always agree on the Planet and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as is our right.

Martina 10-13-2012 08:24 PM

I agree, belle. It should be about how you'd treat any friend or friendship. It's not a butch femme thing, I'd hope.

Edited to add -- this is not worthy of a sustained discussion. Or at least I don't have that much energy invested.

princessbelle 10-13-2012 08:28 PM

I think the butch/femme identity comes up a lot here. I just never see butch/femme as heteronormalitive at all. Actually, i see it as the farthest thing from it. I guess that's where we differ.

It's funny that someone may see butch/femme as heteronormalitive behavior. In fact, it feels like a heteronoramalitive way of looking at things to even think that.

LOL. I know that made no sense.



Martina 10-13-2012 08:31 PM

I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.

princessbelle 10-13-2012 08:35 PM

I disagree totally.

I date women. Nothing heteronormalitive about it. Nothing. When i dated FtMs or Trans, still wasn't heteronormalitive. I haven't been on that side of the fence for 15 years. lol.

You are right it's not worth our time here i'm sure. We just see things differently. That's ok.


The_Lady_Snow 10-13-2012 08:36 PM

Clarifying
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 675027)
Sigh. I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.



I tend not to assume that femme = dating butch only. I certainly don't date in this way.

Martina 10-13-2012 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princessbelle (Post 675031)
I disagree totally.

I date women. Nothing heteronormalitive about it. Nothing. When i dated FtMs or Trans, still wasn't heteronormalitive. I haven't been on that side of the fence for 15 years. lol.

You are right it's not worth our time here i'm sure. We just see things differently. That's ok.


Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.

princessbelle 10-13-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 675035)
Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.

I hear you. I still disagree. I do not see that feminine dating masculine is heteronormalitive. I just don't.


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