The thing is that most of the time, I imagine, the parties involved just wouldn't care. So why have a rule? And if, as in Word's case, you are confronted with THE relationship, then most bets are off.

I see no point in a rule. If the question is would I be hurt, probably not. If I were, should it make a difference to the new couple? Probably not. Why should my old pain discourage a potentially good relationship from forming?

I saw mention of something called a femme code. After nearly 30 years of being a femme, I learn there is a code. Who knew? I assume it means don't flirt with a friend's ex -- in this context.

The idea is offensive to me in some ways. The assumption is that femmes need a code, that without it we'd be poaching each other's partners or ex's, that there is a real risk of that kind of behavior without creating norms we have to enforce with our disapproval.

I have never run with large groups of butches and femmes, but I have known many over the years. And I would not characterize femmes this way.

I have dated exes of friends. I have asked my friends first, if that was ok. Protocol. And courtesy.

the problem I see in the case Anya gave us, was the nastiness of those two flirting in front of her friend. Mean People! It was low and spiteful of them to put on a display that they knew would make Anya's friend uncomfortable. If I did date someone's ex, I would be discrete about affection in front of them until I knew everyone involved was ok with it.

I have had new girlfriends of MY exes parade in front of me. But then, I did that to someone once too, for which i am ashamed now of my past action. We learn through our mistakes or we stay bitches. I learned...

I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

I don't know. Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.

Are you saying it's weird to not date other femmes and to prefer butches? Not saying I don't find femmes to be *beautiful* but it saddens me to be boxed into the weird category once again because I prefer dating the more masculine end of the spectrum. Cues Radiohead *I'm a creep, I'm a weirdo*....

Bouncing off Martina's post
 

Oh, *I* date all over the queer gender spectrum.




I'm far from hetero so I'm going to disagree with your perception.

It's a buzzkill (for the relationship) if a trusted member of my chosen inner circle dates or makes a move on someone I was in love with or owned.

It's boundary crossing for "me" I don't expect for anyone else but the people I'm allowing in my life to respect these boundaries. It's going to be a well known fact I have these expectations because like with any other relationship my chosen circle will know because in developing the friendship it will be talked about. Friendships are relationships.

I feel it's an individual choice on how one values relationships over nookie.

Gender is much less important to me when this boundary issue exists than the fact that I want to honor my friendships and maintain loyalty to my heartfriends.

I would feel exactly the same way if say Just_G, whom I consider to be one of my close Butch friends, suddenly started dating Butches, got into a long term relationship, was all in love and shit, and they then split up. I wouldn't date G's ex partner, Butch or Femme or Transman, for the exact same reason I don't date my girlfriend's exes.

The bonds I have with my Femme girlfriends are special though, no doubt, and whether it's het-normative or not, those relationships are a type of bond that is specific, intentional, and some of the most affirming space I have in my life.

I get the friend thing. I don't get the femme code thing. That strikes me as sexist and heteronormative.

Sexist in the sense that if we didn't claim this great loyalty bond, we'd be out there conniving to get each other's partners.

Heteronormative in grouping like gender people "friends" and the other gender as "potential dates."

No. I wasn't saying that.

Miss Tia, I appreciate that you read and "got it" exactly as written!

Just simple human kindness. Femme to femme kindness.

Dating the ex of a close, sister-heart femme would not even be in my own personal universe of clear boundaries but neither would hurting a non-close acquaintance by flirting in front a recently dumped or in pain femme.

That is just me.

I get that many of you have a different belief or value system.

We certainly do not always agree on the Planet and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as is our right.

I agree, belle. It should be about how you'd treat any friend or friendship. It's not a butch femme thing, I'd hope.

Edited to add -- this is not worthy of a sustained discussion. Or at least I don't have that much energy invested.

I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.

Clarifying
 

I tend not to assume that femme = dating butch only. I certainly don't date in this way.

Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.