I tried to find toughy's post
 

This is exactly right and although expressed in many words and cultures we all should strive for this balance on a microcosmic level. How we physically manifest and experience this here and now is our identity for this life time.

IMO there are two spirit 3rd sex people that present an androgynous form and spirit. It seems that, from what I have personally encounter, they are often thought of as transgendered and even thought that would mean "in transition" they clearly are happy where they are and often accept being called "trans". I'm not saying this is right or wrong and obviously everyone has a preference. I don't think its for any of us to judge or try and define. As with anything in life the rules often change to meet needs. We should try and be more flexible, especially when it comes to words.

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

I'm sorry if I came across that way. It's not my intention. I responded to her post and my perception. You're probably right though in that my experience and opinions have changed. As for my past relationships it wasn't about any of that. Those observations I made later in retrospect. There were other issues. My reference was to two spirits and how it relates to FTM. I simply gave my opinion and honestly stated what I am attracted to and looking for. It wasn't transphobic or anything else.

here we go again...

This was my post....it's post #49. Diva responded to it a bit later on.....post #75. Diva's original post that caused my post was before #49.

And yes........my response was about cultural appropriation.

here is a link for a local two-spirit group http://www.baaits.org/

other two spirit info can be found here:
http://www.nativeout.com/

I totally get what you are saying here. My point is/was that unless he identifies as Native American, he is appropriating a Native concept.

I could call myself two-spirit.....it really does fit me.....however it would be appropriation..........even though I was actively involved in BAAITS at one time. I may have some Cherokee blood through my mother's mother's mother's mother, however that does not make me Native American.

I sit here drinking my morning (afternoon) coffee and am reading this thread.
A few things come to mind that I will share...

TO transition does not mean a simple nip and tuck here and there and wallahhh....someone is the gender they want to be.

One, they already ARE the gender they want to be. The transformation just aligns them up correctly.

Two, transition involve physical, mental, and spiritual alignments. Physical is just one part of it.

Three, anothe huge part of it is social. While the FtM is transitioning, they also must deal with the societal perceptions, which include family and loved ones. And also included members of their affiliations, including this forum.

Four, while they are transitioning, they will bump into people who are evolving. Some more evolved than others. Some evolved in many areas but not in this area.

Five, When words are offered,they will be read in exactly the level of evolution the reader is in, and will also be presented in exactly the level of evolution the writer is in.

Six, these two might not always match up

Seven, when this happens it might feel like a confrontation. Actually, its a unique opportunity to learn. And they will learn regardless of how it is handled.

Eight, what they learn will depend on how sensitively each will handle the other with

Nine, this is a necessary part of transitioning and evolving

Ten, we can all learn from one another. And support one another, with kindness or with flames...both indicate a deep investment in this process


I have learned quite a bit in this thread and I thank all the people who have contributed. I support all of you...wherever you are in your transitioning and evolvement. You have added to my evolution. I come to these sights so that I can connect with my community. And in doing so, I have had to learn to be more sensitive, be more understanding, shut my mouth more often than I was used to, and speak from my place and no one elses.

:moonstars:

[QUOTE=dark_crystal;153636]
it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

I am FTM (currently in transition). But something tells me it's going to be hard to find someone who would want to date me.

Just a feeling I have...

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

The FtMs I have been involved with have been kind gentlemen. Initially when I first became involved with FtMs, I had alot to learn too. I stumbled with words and yet, they helped me learn. I have been very lucky to have had some great dates. I mattered to them and they took the time to help me explore my dichotomies.

I hope DarkCrystal encounters people just as willing to help her grasp what is past her dichotomies...

[QUOTE=Mister Bent;153668][FONT="Arial"]I have to agree with turasultana.

[FONT="Arial"]If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

The portion in bold is not parallel to what Dark Crystal said, and fails as a comparison; it's not the same as saying "it's never been possible for ------ femme to be feminine enough for me." We aren't talking about "butchness" (in the way you speak of "femmeness"), but masculinity. Is a "different type of femme" one less feminine than some other type of femme? Is it your assertion that "femmeness" is exactly the same thing as femininity? Is one a high femme because she is more/most feminine - or is there some other defining set of criteria?

I made it clear that I did not take offense, but found the statement to be one of qualification & quantification, which I find to be disturbing. Nor did I say anything about being "attacked" or "undervalued", you're reading something into my post that isn't there, it wasn't so personal for me (as I think I also made clear).

I continue to maintain that we can talk about what attracts us to FTMs using solely positive terms, not comparative ones that are disparaging of other identities.

Again, as I stated in my post, I wasn't offended by her, nor did I think she was being malicious in her intent, so we're in agreement on that. Dark Crystal wasn't "attacked" she was challenged on some words she used. You're right, it was obvious to everyone. There was nothing personal in my post, or any of the others questioning her opinion.

[quote=turasultana;153648]

Mr Bent, thank you so much for telling me how wrong I was in the way I interpreted your post and for getting us on the right track again....

Dear DC.

Your post was fine.

And we move on from here....


Dark Crystal wrote: i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER][/QUOTE]

What doesn't! (i.e. Sometimes it simply feels that everything attracts me to Ftms!!!)

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread and that's what popped into my head.

A gentle moderating moment...

Before things get too far off track, let's please focus on the original intent of the thread.

It's possible (and preferred) to state what you *do* like and what *attracts* you to ___________ without tearing down anyone or anything else.

Just focus on the positive, please.

shoes. it's the shoes. :blueheels:

SuperFemme!!! I am so glad to see you...GB-less! Been praying for you all day and night...to ease your pain..

yes...I do so love their shoes...and the way they wear their socks...

I do have a foot fetish....

What is a FTM? I ask that because in another thread the differences in IDs are being discussed and what those IDs mean. And they mean many different things to many different people! My partner does not define himself as a FTM even though many looking at his experiences might define him that way. He's queer. I'm queer. He's a butch. I'm a femme. I am very happy with Mahhhh Man!

I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

just to inform you of my tone in that post was respectful not condescending. Please do not put "tones" to my words that are not there.

And I think if a mod gives a gentle moderation, he means it...

It appears you misinterpreted the post.

Let it rest, and let the original and intended discussion continue. If you have any questions about it, please contact me via PM.

Thinker

i like nice hands too.
a good manicure.
or rough hard working calloused hands.
of course, i prefer them still attached and not in a jar.
i'm picky like that.

oh. and concert t shirts.
i cannot date anyone that doesn't have some amazing concert t's.

some people always rain on my delusional parade.

and i can tooooo date. it's just that my dating pool consists of one amazing guy. with concert t's. hahahaha. neener neener.

can i borrow your umbrella now?

whew, too tough. and a hard act to follow.

I've thought about this and thought about the FTQ/FTM that I've dated/screwed around with to see if there was anything unifying about them that may be different than anyone else I've dated.

The only thing that seems to stand out is the ones I've dated/fucked about with were very bender-ish. In that, they were *totally* comfortable in queering their masculinity and coming up with their own masculine gender now that body matched their head a bit more. Thus we could get up to some seriously fun (for me me me and them them them) queering/bender-sex role play.

The butches I tended to date at this time were a little more uncomfortable with that kind of mind gender-fuck. I'm sure tons were able to, I just had no access to any as at the time no one was admitting to any of it, thus I couldn't ask any out. I did discover that once my partners were comfortable with who I was and that they trusted I respected them, they got more willing and curious and able.

I think, at the time and place, the FTQ/M I had access to were just there a bit faster.

That's really the only difference I can think of.

BI (before Inki) in london, I did turn down a couple of straight FtM dates as I didn't really see that jiving. They didn't see themselves as heteroqueer or queer in anyway. So I said no. I don't date straight blokes. TBH, I didn't (and don't) really know very many straight FtMs. Most that I know ID as queer or heteroqueer (and half of those aren't queer in sexuality - they don't have sex with other men of any origin, they just feel their journey aligns them with a queer philosophy and outlook and bendy sex games lol)

but as for why those FtQ/M were attractive? Nothing about them being FtM. They displayed characteristics I find hot in anyone - cheeky, funny, thoughtful, non-rigid, able to take the piss, treat me like a human rather than "a girl", cocky (in the good way: see cheeky) and self confident.

Actually that's not entirely true - there are certain aspects in femmes I find attractive and hot that I don't find attractive in butches or FtQ/Ms. And vice versa. hmn. Have to think about that.

Everytime I think about this subject I come up with nothing. I think what it all boils down to is I"m attracted to energy. Generally speaking, I tend to gravitate more to abundant masculine energy more, with a touch of feminine. Most butches, and FTM's I"ve dated embrace thier inner fag. I like that. It's hot.

I like this.

I'd like to steal it (and give you credit).