i think it's pretty clear that she was trying to explain to people who don't know what a butch is. i agree that it is unfortunate that she said "man." She has told a lot of stories though that show the complexity of their lives.

Bingo. Yes, I care about the language/intentions/limitations/biases and assumptions that exist around female identities. And I'm pretty amazed at some of expressions of indifference, that make this just a personal matter. Would you have the same attitude if say, Chaz Bono's partner referred to him publicly as "a man with a vagina?" Would that be seen as just a personal, off-the-cuff, cute attempt at explaining the identity of a transman?

wondering..
 

What about Buck Angel who calls himself

A man with a vagina...

Corky, Arwen - you don't have to care. Do you care that I care?

And I did not once mention the word "feminist in any single one of my posts, nor did I call anyone a "bad" anything.

Oh, and P.S. I don't care one jot what Cynthia and her partner call themselves or each other. None of my business. What I do care about is the discourse, especially in queer communities, about female identities. That is my business. And even if it isn't, I will continue to stick my nose in it anyway. ;)

Calls HIMSELF... That's key. (Buck's awesome and a feminist to boot.)

Anyway, I'm pretty much done now. Made my points, stand by 'em.

G'night.

I am not a short man with boobs...
 

I appreciate the point that Heart is making here. But I also appreciate much of the discussion here because it reminds me that I choose to reside in this community that lets me come here and say:

I am not a short man with boobs.
I am not a woman in any sense of the word. I don't care what my chromosomes say about it either.
I do not, at all, embrace my breasts or my other parts that do not match me. Nor do I celebrate them.
I am butch, male-identified to my very core.
I am trans, even though I don't take T and have had very little surgery.
I own who I am. No one tells me who I am.
I define me. I live in this body. I make no excuses. I never apologize for who I am.

This, to me, is the very core of this community...the right to self-i.d. I think that Cynthia Nixon -- always my least favorite SATC character, btw -- is doing what she does best. She is assigning a role to her significant other because as an actress, that is perhaps how she sees her world. Do they, as individuals or as a couple, have a place in this community? Sure, if they want to be a part of it. If they choose not to, then that's ok too. I hope it works out for them, really. It's always nice to see couples...no matter how they i.d. or how they view each other in the world...work and do well.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

Ok call me slow or something .. but I am still trying to figure out where this comment comes into being misogynist, homophobic or sexist?

So she called her partner a little man with boobs... who is that actually hurting?
You can not say that it is hurting the gay community because honestly I know alot of WOMEN who are butches who have boobs and when they get called Sir or young man they do not automatically say oh shit that was hurtful because you are homophobic, sexist or a misogynist.

Unfortunately in this day and age to sit and worry about what someone who is famous is saying about her partner is redundant. Sometimes I think that people look for things to explain the way society is and guess what there is nothing that can explain the way people think. I say that because not all people are the same. Everyone thinks the things they want because of their own experiences or what they were taught or showed through life. I actually laughed when I read that comment because I thought of how my ex always gets called young man. We always laugh about it because when she turns around and they see her chest they apologize profusely to her for the mistake.

Unfortunately when people look at a person and only see them from the neck up and see short hair yes they will assume that they are a man, but that doesn't automatically make them a horrible person.

I understand that maybe you do not like what was said but honestly that will have very little to do with the way people still think about gay people. That comment isn't going to make them change their ways and think something else.

We are fighting for our rights of equality and in that unfortunately sometimes you have to take the good with the bad this comment did not set the gay community back at all.

I actually think that it might make people think twice about automatically thinking that someone is a man when they take a first glance at them.

It brought to the front that fact that some women do have short hair and do ID as something other than a woman.

I mean if you are going to say anything then look into what others say..
I watched the Wanda Sykes special on HBO the other night ..
When she was describing her wife she said "I always say she is french, because it is better then saying she is white." Should we attack her for being prejudice to white people? No that is just how she describes her partner and as long as the partner is not insulted by what was said what right do we have to be upset by what she said?

My question is Would you feel the same way if you heard some gay man describe their partner as a fairy or the more flamboyant one? If you are willing to sit and discuss this silly comment are you willing to say that you would be the same with gay men as well. Because after all we are all in this fight together to be understood and excepted.

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

I have no doubt that some people, reading Nixon’s words, will conclude that butches, generally, are ‘men with boobs’. This inference, though, seems to rely upon an implicit denial of individual differences among queers; it betrays a deep ignorance, I think.

So, how should we deal with this? I don’t think the answer is to censor ourselves too heavily, when it comes to talking about ourselves and our loved ones, for fear that the quirks of our own dynamics will be illegitimately generalized to the whole queer population.

Rather, we should try to remind people, whenever possible, that we are, in fact, individuals- that, just like straight people, we’re beautifully, delightfully idiosyncratic.

Her words were about her lover, not about anyone else, you aren't in her head and as such cannot confirm any such phobia to her words. You take what you want to hear and run with all this hysteria, it's ludicrous. If her lover isn't insulted then why are you? It isn't your place to be insulted for her.

Why are women "ludicrous" and "hysterical" for wanting to discuss the limited language used to describe female masculinity?

Hm. I dont understand the leap from how one persons description of her partner translates into these points.

Do you really believe saying a partner is a man with boobs or a man with a vagina really fits these points?

I am back to we, as a community, cannot separate out the issues for ourselves. So, is it fair to judge people on the periphery who make off the cuff comments about their own situation and to assign our values to their words? I think not.

Heart,

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% if we're speaking generally.

Where I disagree with you 100% is that this comment was made about an individual by an individual who has wayyyyyyyy more intimate knowledge of the person in question. We have absolutely no idea how this particular couple sees themselves.

If Mahhh Woman called me a man without a penis, or a woman with boobs, or whatever, it's between us, and has nada to do with how the rest of the trans community sees the comment. It's nunya's business how Mahhh Woman and I interact with one another and how we refer to eachother.

Now, if Nixon or Mahhh Woman said it about all butches, or all transfolks, I'd have a problem with it...but she didn't.

But yeah, I totally agree with you in a generally-speaking sense.


Not That Mahhh Opinion Matters At All To You, But Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

I do agree that if her partner wants to be called this, then that it totally their business. I am not in the middle of their relationship, so maybe this is a pet name. Who knows. When it takes on the life that it has already...I think there is some responsibility...

And I differ with you here...

I think she just needs a bit of education. Sure she is not Ellen, but as a Queer person in the media, making comments, whether they are personal to her partner or not, people read them. Just as we all have here, read them and had opinions. I feel like she has at least a tiny bit of responsibility (being in the media) to help educate. Now I am not asking her to become a spokesperson for all things Queer...but...

I sort of equate it to a sports figure. I believe a sports person, say Dennis Rodman, has responsibility to not do really stupid shit. I mean we all make mistakes, but kids look up to these people and when they do stupid shit, it makes an impression.

So, again, I'm not condoning what she said... just thinking that she needs a lesson in some Queer/Gender language.

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

P.S. I think I might be more inclined to hold her more 'responsible' if she had been out or identified as queer for more than just a few years. It's kind of like expecting great driving strategies from a teenager. (this also kind of ties into the tie to Anne Heche)

I mean, if we were talking about Bea Arthur or Anyone who has actually been involved in the queer community for a bajillion years, then yeah, I would expect more from them. But...it's Cynthia Nixon...she's been out for what? a few years? I came out when I was 15...I don't think anyone expected great things from me in the way of queer politics three years later, yanno what I'm sayin'?


Dylan

On this note: Paris Hilton was the Grand Marshal of the WeHo Pride Parade. Do we expect her to espouse our politics? God. I. Hope. Not.

I wonder
 

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

I wonder , would THEY respond. Would THEY clarify ?

Would they defend, would they respond , Would they learn something ?

Would they even have to ?

Would it help ?

I would love it if they strolled in right now, sat on the couch with us all and took this to the next stage.

marching to a different drummer...
 

I went to the Advocate and read the whole article. Here's the part which seems most relevant to me.

http://www.advocate.com/Print_Issue/Cover_Stories/Cynthia_Nixon_is_More_Than_Just_Sex/

It seems to me the interviewer led Nixon to this statement; to me the interviewer was saying, "most people see you as this character in a show, and they expect you to be seen with other similar characters... what do you think people will see when you are out with your partner?"

I read her response as saying, "most people will see a short man with boobs." Now I get it that she actually said "she's basically a...." but I think that was clumsy language. When people are laughing, they're not necessarily careful how they phrase their sentences, yanno? It really seems to me that she meant that people would expect to see her with stereotypically beautiful actresses, and would think she was instead with a man who had boobs.

Because that's the way I read the article, it also seems to me that she herself was not categorizing her partner as much as she was commenting on the way other people categorize her partner. People have categorized some of my exes in a similar way; I mean seriously, how can a person look at someone wearing women's earrings and a pink women's sweatshirt, someone who has a nicely prominent female chest, and say "sir"? How can they continue to say "sir" even after the person speaks in a clearly female voice?

So if this is the way Nixon intended to be understood, then I have a shared experience with her because I also have seen other people assume that a lesbian is a man with boobs. It was diminishing to the lesbian in question, and she was quite vocal about hating it... but I have also known other lesbians, especially Butches, who have had similar experiences and have just laughed it off.

OK, I believe I get what you are saying Dylan, but the thing is there are hundred of headlines reading

"Nixon calls her Lesbian Lover (and variations thereof) A Man Without Boobs."

So if a famous partner of a trans man was in an interview and said about her/his/pronoun of choice partner "he's basically a man without a dick, and what I love about him is his transness."

So all the trans people out there would get to see this headline:
"Famous Person X calls Trans Lover a Man Without A Dick

How is that going to make transmen and transwomen feel? Are they just going to shrug it off and say oh well that's between the two.

I'm not trans but personally wouldn't want to see a headline like that over and over one bit.

Yes, it would be interesting and we would give them a warm and friendly welcome !

I'm still struggling to understand how the comment values men over women.

Is it the order? That she said "short man" before "boobs"? Because I don't think short men in general are a hot commodity. Look at Tom Cruise and how he wears shoe lifts and is all picky about his height being depicted.

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

Hey Corkey,

Just wanted to clarify a little something here. Words like "hysteria" and "ludicrous" in this context and discussion can feel like a personal attack when we are referencing how a female person perceives the situation.
I don't think you were saying that a specific person was "hysterical" or "ludicrous" but I do want us all to be mindful of using loaded language in these discussions.

So far, this discussion has been really good and I'm glad to see folks expressing their opinions in healthy ways. Let's keep it on that level. :)

Thanks all,
Admin

Masculine women are not men. No one that I know of wants to be reduced to body parts- boobs, vagina, etc.

Her partner refers to her as a woman in multiple instances. I don't know why people are trying to cast doubt on that.

Butches have been told all their lives they are wanna be men and ugly women.

I can see how that is hurtful.

I'm off to give it more thought.

If I understand right, it's that the word "man" was used to describe a woman.

When people describe a woman who is not stereotypically feminine/beautiful as "a man" then the message that comes across is that the only proper way to be a woman is to be stereotypically feminine/beautiful--in other words, if you aren't clearly and easily labeled "feminine" you must be a man.

The problem is, that message leaves out all the other ways of being a woman, including being a Butch woman. You could say that it steals a lot of space from being a woman and labels it all "man." That message makes "man" worth more than "woman" and that's why it is misogynist.

Hope that helps!

Thanks, Kind of. I'm really trying to see it. I need to close my eyeballs and ponder it quietly I think.

You've brought this analogy up umpteen times in this thread, so I'll answer you from my ME place. But shock of all shocks, I'll bet 1/2 of Transdom would disagree with me (if they actually cared about Cynthia Nixon's commentary).

If Famous X person were on the same level in which I place Cynthia Nixon, then I would, as a transperson, not give a rat's ass about the comment either. Is Famous X person talking about his/her/per's partner in the same context as Cynthia Nixon's comment? Then I don't really give a shit.

Is he/she/per talking about all of transmen? Then I give a rip. Are we talking Cynthia Nixon or SomeoneOfSubstanceThatActuallyMatters? Because I care about the latter but not so much about the former. Need proof? No one flipped out in this thread when Superfemme discussed her Beloved's 'boobs'. And I actually care what Superfemme has to say much moreso than Cynthia Nixon.

And here's the other thing...the ONLY place I've seen this headline over and over and over is when I googled it after Heart started this thread. I haven't heard hide nor hair of this comment until this thread was started...nor WOULD I have heard about it as I just don't give a rat's ass about Cynthia Freakin' Nixon or her partner. This comment certainly wasn't slapped across any of the newspapers I saw this morning. Haven't heard about it plastered all over the radio. Haven't seen it at all on the television. It wasn't worthy enough to make it on yahoo's front page. Seriously, where is it that this headline is just being blasted over and over besides google or another search engine? What? TMZ? That show is not allowed to be played in this house.

There's REAL queer things going on in the world that actually affect me on a personal level, and NONE of them have squat to do with some 15 minutes of fame 'celebrity' who's run her course (another Anne Heche connection).

It's funny to me that we have this whole breakdown of this one little sound-bytey snippet, but why have we NEVER broken down how vapid and sexist the show is that made this woman famous? Because there's a fucking conversation worth having.


Seriously, WHO CARES How This Woman Refers To Her Partner?,
Dylan

And just to add...again, this woman has been out for a couple/few years. She's not going to have done the same research someone who's been out for a bajillion years. She's also probably (assumption) more insulated from 'average' queers given her celebrity status. I mean, it's not like she can comfortably just waltz into tons of queer space with a myriad of different queers. Again, I take seriously very little of what 'apprentice' queers have to say.

OK thanks for the reply Dylan.

----------

All the comments being made about Nixon's partner out in cyberspace are that she is ugly and looks like a 12 year old boy. How. Original.

Yeah, I read those comments too. I have to say, the commentary from the morons pissed me off.


Total Crap,
Dylan