Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

If:

Sex = male, female, intersexed

Gender = man, woman, Butch, etc.

Did you mean third sex?

(Side note: Many see butch as inherently third gendered.).

yes and more popular use of that term. And in that, seperating transgender from transsexed. which my brain really thanks you for. that's the one I "come of age" with.

Corkey's use still slightly confuses me as I'm not quite certain of the underlaying premise of his terms, but I don't really need to completely understand. it's sort of close enough and it's not really all that important - Corkey is still completely Corkey, regardless of if I can follow it with my own upbringing of terms or not.

my mind is probably geared to non-specifics better. maybe I'm just a generalist, blurry person. I get along better with really gappingly wide terms.
It's why, ever though I'm fairly gender fluid I can't be arsed with defining it (too muuuuch wooork. lazy.) and just go with generalist "femme" with no qualifiers. I also don't care if I'm called she or sie.

I do actually really appreciate the effort people are taking to help me understand though!! jesus. that's actually pretty damn nice. So thank you, Dapper x

A third gender in which the "rules" attempting to be applied
by the two main stream genders do not apply and by which
members who identify alternatively can apply their own rules,
definitions, and labels as they see fit.

The only requirement of the third gender is the understanding that
the third gender is grey and is up to each individual to color their own
palette as they see fit...while keeping open to marvel at the beauty
of the other portraits being painted around you.

Right. The only expectation for hormones and chest reconstruction is one letter from a therapist saying you have a gender identity disorder and meet "readiness criteria"

For genital surgery you must live full time for one year as the opposite sex and you need two letters for sugery.

The standards of care actually specifically state:

Can Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgery or a Real-life Experience? :
Yes, but after diagnosis and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following
minimal standards listed above. Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender
patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so. In some
patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need
for cross living or surgery.

LOL!!!!

ok that helps.

transgender = who you are, totally understand.

transexual = how you fuck. I think I get. you mean in hetero - meaning fucking opposite sex to how you see your own body?

sorry corkey it's getting personal and feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind me own biz!

Haha, and so we come full circle :p Every label is different for everyone. There is no widespread or clear cut definition that applies to how everyone applies their own identity.

And so to the question the OP initially asked, we're back to the beginning. What is the difference between a male id'd butch and an FtM? Well, what's the difference between one FtM and another. Not every FtM sees themselves the same way or views the label FtM the same way. We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally. Same way that not every male id'd butch understands that identity the same way. Some of us identify as 100% male, others feel differently. Or male but not in the same way someone born biologically male might consider themselves male (which is a whole other kettle of fish, since we shouldn't assume that every single biologically born male understands themselves in the same way as though they're all carbon copies of one another.). Some of us plan on transitioning/are transitioning/have transitioned while others have no such plan to do so while still considering themselves male. Some of us like the colour blue, others like yellow. Some of us hate brussel sprouts, others devour them like they're god's gift to humanity.

My point: sure we all have commonalities and dissimilarities. I may have more in common with someone who identifies as FtM than with someone who identifies as male id'd butch (talking about experiences, identity etc. here), or I may have more in common with another male id'd butch than with another FtM. There might not actually be a huge difference or any difference at all beyond terminology depending on the individual. Or the terminology and being male might be all we have in common. Or not. Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

Yes, agreed Corkey.

woohoo! I get the giant stuffed panda!!!


see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.

They use FtM as messy imprecise short hand. I'm not saying everyone does, but the individuals I'm thinking of did.

I'm by no means not trying to say I know much, I'm only trying to... ah... contextualise my knowledge/ignorance divide so people know where I'm coming from. Reflexivity ;)

I'm learning. Thanks for the patience :rrose: to everyone so far in allowing me to participate in this space.

Yes, personally, for me, if I was transsexual (meaning FTM), I would never use the term transgender. It would throw things off.

I have seen the word transgendered used in quite a few ways:

1) an umbrella term for FTMs, genderqueers, crossdressers (of the non-trans persuasion), etc. I am pretty certain this was the first usage of the term

2) For people who tend to see themselves as between sexes - male/female

3) other ways


I'm #2 and think that there are enough of us around to shift things this way! lol

The only problem with the term (which I talked about in another thread on another site), is that it has the word gender in it when really in definition #2 we are talking about a person's sex. So, really we need another term (and no, genderqueer is not the same thing to me...and again, there is that pesky gender word again when really referring to a person's sex!)

Anyway, my initial point was going to be that I think that if I was transsexed that it would bother me if the word transgendered was used when describing me. They are NOT the same thing and I would feel misunderstood/misrepresented, I think.

Just my two cents of rambling for ya...

rotflmao after the nerf bat bonking is over...

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

I know for myself a lot of the frustration and confusion comes when trying to define my partner's gender within the context of male and female. Sometimes it is more defining what he is not. He is not a woman. Never was and never felt like one. He is a transmasculine butch. That is his gender. Not female. Not male. He has legally transitioned and yet still retains butch as his gender. He does not use the term FtM to define himself.

If feels uncomfortable to me when we discuss how others choose to change their bodies. The problem I have seen with the Harry Benjamin guidelines is that they are too rigid in defining gender and the wide range that encompasses.

Well, I have had the same difficulty as HB with understanding the term male identified butch, whereas TG Butch has always made sense to me. I am not sure they mean the exact same thing and it will vary from individual to individual. I have always associated male= biological sex and man/woman/butch/femme etc = gender, so male being used in what seems to me to be gender terms does confuse me.

I just got into the habit that if someone says they are male then I consider them male. It doesn't have to do with biology, surgery, transitioning, hormones, etc. It has to do with who they say they are. Not everyone has the same options or makes the same decisions based on how to align their physical body and legal status with their gender, biological sex or physical body attributes. I think many who consider themselves to be male id'd butches- it is more about their mind than actual physical body, or where the two meet. Ender did talk about that.

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not. ;)

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I have heard about your Club Wotever. If I ever make it to London I am SO going there! Sounds fantastic! (As does the rest of your queer culture).

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

Frankly, it sounds much less stuck in old patriarchal gender distinctions and uptight sexual mores (unfortunately, major US fundamentasl of society) to me! It has been years since I was in the UK, but, when you and HB and others talk about it in terms of this, I long for anbother visit! I was het when there last.

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs who don't consider themselves to be third gender. Not sure if all male id'd butches do.

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

I agree with what you've said and that there is probably more to biological sex. But I just wanted to make a note on the last bit. There is also a scientific basis for "brain sex" or neurological sex. In the last decade or so it's been found that those born in biologically female bodies who consider themselves male tend to have somatostatin neuron numbers in the brain in the male range (men have double the number that women have), while biologically born males who consider themselves female have numbers in the female range. So there does seem to be a scientific basis in the feeling of maleness or femaleness despite biological sex or being neither one. I think it would be interesting to see further studies, since, as we've all discussed here, the spectrum of identification goes beyond male and female and there are likely answers regarding how we identify in all of our brains.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the popularly viewed importance of reproductive organs.

@HowSoonIsNow, I don't think that it is necessarily all that recently that the term butch has expanded or that butch has always necessarily meant masculine lesbian. Just thinking of Stone Butch Blues (as far as I remember, Jess talked about not feeling like a lesbian, not feeling female or male but something else. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, my memory's foggy) and even some of what's been said by prominent butch or tg authors, people around these sites, at conferences like Butch Voices (from what I've had the chance to see of the conference on youtube...would love to go one day) as well who talked about the butch/femme scene in the 50's, 60's, 70's as well as how both older and younger butches see their identity. I can't say out of personal experience, I wasn't there, but that's what I've gathered from hearing and reading what others who were have had to say. Maybe those who did not identify as lesbian were not the majority of the butch population in the past, but from what I gather still present. Just as male id'd butches today are pretty much a minority among those who do identify as butch, but still present.

No Corkey, I am not insisting people look at butch in my way. Not all butches are third gender and there are more than three genders. For those who identify with the term they are free to do so.