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i think that since schools are supposed to be educating kids to move on out into the world, it should be structured more like the "real world". specific schedules, year round, planning your vacations. deadlines and responsibilities...and consequences for not meeting them.
i think too much is put on the shoulders of the teachers, when kids refuse to learn or live up to the requirements of getting educated. these young folks need to learn about responsibility and accountability somewhere. i think that by restructuring the school system, that can be managed. now that my rant is over...the holidays need to be handled just like they would be on any job. i think shift "work" might be also be an option for those kids (like my niece) who would rather be up all night and sleep all day. ok, i'm done now. |
I have gone full circle on this topic over the years. I use to not want the schools have ANY religious activity, especially holidays. I felt it was not the job of the school to teach religion. And if they were going to do so, they should not teach just ONE religion.
And then the Change hit. Yes, menopause. Dont laugh. I am a different person even from a year ago because of this. Now I firmly believe our schools must introduce religion to the children, and to be inclusive and celebrate other religious holiday than simply Xtianity. I dont see this so much as a need for religious value, but to introduce diversity to them. But yes, spirituality is very important and while it should not govern our educational system, it should not be excluded from it entirely. When we broke humans down into parts and chambers of a physical being, and then conquered the mind and the way the brain works, we saw no need and even disputed the need for a spiritual base. diversity in childhood would help raise children into less hateful kids... |
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------ I say no religious holidays in public schools unless you recognize ALL religious holidays and you also need a holiday for atheists. Take week long breaks in the school year. I don't know if this is still true today but when I was in public school in the 60's, we could have an excused absence (for I think up to a week) to go deer hunting. I would like to see high school kids learn about the different religions around the world. But that would open up a big ole can of worms that would be impossible to deal with. |
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My kids also when they were young, were not given the jewish or muslim holidays off - only Christian. What about the other religions who do not celebrate any holidays? While today they might call their concerts Holiday Concerts in some communities - it is still filled with songs of Christianity. And be damned if you do not stand for the pledge of allegiance. Bottom line, we are not all the same when it comes to our religious beliefs - yet we are all the same when it comes to humanity. This country has a much deeper and richer Native American History -- Perhaps we should cancel out the "invader" religions and stick to Native American religions and honor those. Julie |
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I'm going to speak from my *me* for a moment. When I was growing up there was no prayer in schools. The pledge of allegiance yes, and that silly phrase of one nation (under god)..., which I skipped over and reverted to the real pledge one nation indivisible.... Now then for me, my parents said I didn't have to follow in their religious backgrounds, they were both different. They said I could learn all of the different theological groups and decide for myself which was a fit for me.
So I did. Now, the school has no business being in the business of religion, it isn't up to the state to teach one religion over another, hense the separation of church and state in the Constitution. I think it is high time we as a society start following that particular clause. |
As founder and designer of the United Gospel Music Center, I included notes in my plans. not to teach classes in Religion, nor to celebrate religious holidays and ceremonies inside, statues, Bibles, etc. It will simply be alive with gospel music all day, along with concerts, and also a music school. There will be only pictures of musicians and composers on the walls.
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I would love to see religion taught in the public school system, not as a form of worship, but as a science or humanities, or even as part of a class in science or humanities or something. Why? Because most kids dont grow up in homes that say "you can pick any religion you like". Instead, they rear their kids to believe their religion is the "IT" religion and dont educate them in alternatives. As a class, they could get introduced to east and west, native and aboriginal, agnostic and aethiest, xtian and jewish.
I dont know about you, but I was in Jr High before I found out not everyone was Catholic... |
And I was 20 years old, before I realized that the crosses on the foreheads of people - did not mean they were Manson Followers!
True Story! I was working in a personnel agency at 20 in NYC. I walked out to get my applicant... What I saw terrified me. A room full of people with black crosses on their foreheads. I ran into my bosses office and told him, we had a room filled with Manson Followers. Now how is that for ignorance?!? My first experience with Ash Wednesday. Point - I agree... My first year of college, I took a world religion course. I always felt it should be taught in primary school. Quote:
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Teachers barely have time to teach the basics. Many schools have already cut out art, music and even recess because there's not enough time in the school day/week. I'd hate to see them have to try to work religion in there, too; plus, I don't agree with public schools being charged with teaching spirituality. I'd like to see music, art and recess brought back, if there was time. I think those are intrinsically more valuable and do not tread into the territory of what values may or may not be in the home (like religion does).
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Unless all religions are given equal access I don't see it being a good thing.
1. Who would teach this class? 2. Would students be required to attend? 3. What if a parent was opposed to mandatory class? 4. Would atheists be excluded? 5. Would a scientific approach be utilized, i.e., the world wasn't created in 6 days, humans didn't live at the same time as dinosaurs, and tell the real truth of evolution? I maintain school and church don't belong together. If parents want to teach their children religion, they need to do so at home. We need critical thinking and the math and sciences to be pushed in school, not mysticism, faith, or speculation of a God. Our children are falling further and further behind the rest of the world. Religion has dumbed down the education of the children of this country. Oh and most of our founding fathers were Deists not Christians. They placed separation of church and state in the Constitution for a reason. While I agree that theology is an important undertaking, I oppose it being taught in primary and high school. |
in Jr High art class, my teacher told us to come up with a logo. So I did a Coke logo that said " Jesus, the real thing"
My teacher refused the project. She asked me if I didnt think it was disrespectful to the god I believed in. I said I didnt see the harm in it. She said she was Jewish and while she didnt see Jesus in the same way as my religion, she thought it was "too far out". (of course, this was before the logo for Coke was "Coke, the real thing" came out and became a popular marketing tool) I blurted out " you dont look jewish" (god I was SO sheltered and ignorant!) and she asked me what someone jewish would look like. We had a really good conversation and I learned SO much from her, including, (rolling my eyes and feeling my embarassment) that Jesus himself was Jewish. No one had taught me that in Sunday School! I think if when we are young, we are made aware of differences, as we mature, those differences wouldnt matter so much. Its when we are taught to be egocentric and see only our way, that differences make people marks for hatred based in ignorance. |
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I think if parents wish to teach their children the fundamentals of world religions (all of which are man made and patriarchal in nature), they can do it on their own time and dime.
We are talking about the publicly funded education system, right? I thought it was clear that religion is separate -- or should be -- from public institutions. I'm for devoting more time to developing critical thinking skills. |
I know very little about music making. I am tone deaf and when my daughter tried to teach me to read music, I had a melt down because I just could not get it. So, I have very little understanding of it
but I know that the note is flat if played without it coming from the part of the person that most would call soul. I also know that teachers ARE so busy that they have very little time for "extras" and I think we need to adjust priorities so that we value art and music and recreation and spirituality as important as math, reading, science, etc. And I believe that there is a huge difference between teaching an introduction to religious diversity and promoting and recruiting children to follow A faith system. I still believe that we could weave diversity in our classes somehow. If the education system does not, then we have an era of children who will grow up knowing how to balance a checkbook but not being able to appreciate the teller at the bank they frequent except as a worker bee and not as a person they are spiritually connected to... Quote:
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Spirituality never stopped me from being kind, or respecting another person. It also never made a note of music. Humans do this, not spirit.
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*Spirituality* is subjective and personal and is best left to parents if they choose to impart a set of beliefs to their children--not the public school system.
Children should not have to be *taught* any set of imaginary beliefs that have been concocted throughout the ages by a teacher in the public school system. Among the MANY other problems, I can just imagine the child who is brought up in a house raised to believe that no god exists and how sitting through these classes would make them feel. You want to raise accepting children who are aware of the diverse nature of people's beliefs or non-beliefs? Raise them that way. |
There are many different definitions of spirituality and even more tenets on which spirituality is based. I don't know how it would be decided on which of these it "should" be based: (list borrowed, and these aren't even all of them):
Aboriginal Beliefs African Diaspora African Methodist Episcopal African Religions Afro-Brazilian Afro-Caribbean Agnosticism Ahmadiyya Movement Anglicanism Asatru Assemblies of God Atheism Bahai Faith Baltic Religions Baptist Brahma Kumaris Buddhism Candomblé Cao Dai Calvinist Catholics: Roman Catholics: Eastern Celtic Religions Celtic Christianity Ceremonial Magick Children of God Christadelphians Christian Identity Christian Science Christianity: all Christianity: Evangelical Christianity: Traditional Christianity: Progressive Christianity: Catholic Christianity: Orthodox Church of Christ Church of the Nazarene Confucianism Congregational Church Dark Zen Deism Disciples of Christ Divination Divine Science Druidry Earth-Based Religions Eastern Orthodoxy Eastern Rite Catholics Eckankar Episcopal Esoteric Essenes Ethical Culture Falun Gong First Nations Folk Magic Freemasons Friends (Quakers) Gnosticism Greco-Roman Hare Krishna Heathens Hellenismos Hinduism Humanism I-Ching Indigenous Beliefs Islam Jainism Jedi Jehovah's Witnesses Judaism Kemetic Religions Latter-Day Saints Lutheran Maltheism Mennonites Messianic Judaism Methodist Metropolitan Community Church Mormon LDS Mormon non-LDS Multifaith Forum Nation of Islam Native American Neo-Pagan Spirituality New Age New Church Noahide Movement Non-denominational New Thought Paganism Pantheism Philosophy Pentecostal Trinitarian Pentecostal Oneness Presbyterian Quakers Raelians Rastafarians Reconstructionists Reformed Religio Romana Religious Science Roman Catholics Runes Salvation Army Sant Mat Santería Satanism Science of Mind Scientology Scientology Freezone Seventh-Day Adventists Shamanism Shinto Sikhism Slavic Religions Society of Friends Sufism Swedenborgians Taoism Tarot Umbanda Unification Church Unitarian Universalism United Church/Canada United Church of Christ Unity Movement Urantia Book Vineyard Churches Vodou/Voodoo Wicca Witchcraft Yoruba Zoroastrianism Quote:
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I did.
I stated my opinion and I dont feel like I need to defend it. We obviously disagree. I am ok with disagreeing with someone. Thank you for sharing your thoughts by responding to mine, and for keeping the discussion open to other people's opinions. I am going to move on now as I have nothing else to add to the discussion... Quote:
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When I was in elementary school (waaaaay back in the 1960s) it was OK for kids who belonged to religions/faith whose religious holidays were not the standard (Christmas/Easter) to take those holidays from school as holidays/excused absences.
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----------------------- For me religion and spirituality are two different things and it seems some folks are using those terms interchangeably. Religion is a set of beliefs and practices about an entity greater than and outside of us, while spirituality is a individual practice and may or may not be based on a religion. I do think religion and not spirituality should be taught. We can teach about the religion without imposing that religion on students. I do wish it was part of the curriculum of public schools, along with art and music and physical education. The priorities of this country are still apparently more focused on killing people and making more money, rather than educating people. |
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Wouldn't this be grand! There are certainly rituals within spiritual contexts- and when you take a good long look... religions of the world have borrowed them from spiritualism.... which is a whole different thing. And actually has levels of devoutness and integration into one's life. I do believe that one can be both spiritual and religious. And also spiritual without any ties to an organized set of religious doctrine. I think it is the institutional nature of religion as an organized entity that bothers me the most when applied to public education in the US. It just goes against key tenets of our system of government and leaves out the world in world religion! Makes no sense to me because of the world content of the people that make up the US. Also, the spiritual base of those that are native to this country was just blown apart. And Native American spirituality does have organization to it. This is simply how a culture is able to pass on its spiritual beliefs to its people. But, with major organized religions throughout history, other things like power and control via political systems polluted the spiritual nature within them. accumulation of wealth is always at the bottom of this structure when you study the role of organized religions. Thinking about things like prayer before battle. I don't use spirituality and religion interchangeably, but, I do find faith to apply to my spiritual realm in relation to what I practice spiritually. But faith to me, has nothing to do with anything institutional in nature. Nothing. Yes, world religions ought to be studied in schools, but not as faith. And any rituals (like prayer) just don't fit with our constitutional make-up of separation of church and state. Sometimes it is simply amazing to me to see advocates like those in the so called Tea Party make a case as strict constitutionalist while at the same time declaring Christian values as THE values of the US! In this whole discussion about holidays and public school calendars, religion and spirituality just shouldn’t be part of the equation at all. And in the US, Christian religions are the time honored back drop which, to me is not OK. then, again, spirituality is deeply personal to me and just isn't about sharing like values. It is about me and what I believe and how I apply my beliefs in my life to have balance internally. I don't know what works for other people and really feel like that is their concern, not mine. |
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I do know the difference b/w spirituality and religion -- still feel the of imparting of that knowledge should up to parents if they choose and not be the responsibility of the public institution of education. |
This is slightly off topic, but would most of you who favor more religious holidays for public school students also favor additional federal holidays (mind you these are paid holidays) which are religious in orientation?
CRS Report for Congress |
Patriarchy is not limited to religion ... much of the law, government, even the degradation of nature has been argued by many feminists to have roots in patriarchy (see, for instance, Caroline Merchant and Rosemary Radford Ruther).
Rather than perpetuate ignorance, I feel that teaching world religions, teaching about patriarchy, racism, gender oppression, heterosexism, and whiteness should be taught as an interdisciplinary subject. Ack! The self correcting speller on smart phone is maddening. Please excuse my errors. |
I don't think the crime rate in this country would be affected by the teaching of religion in schools. As a matter of fact, the crime rate has dropped with less observance of religion in schools (prayer, celebration of religious holidays). And, which religions would be taught? How would that be decided? And, how would they be taught? From which viewpoint?
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In my experiences, subjects are taught by those who not only are members of a specific discipline, but who also have academic credentials. In progressive education, and in an interdisciplinary team approach, this CAN work quite well.
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She had the students come into class with their faces painted, had them bang on some drums, and eat some desserts in simulation of her perception of a pow wow. yep. |
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I cannot do multiple quotes from my phone. Your patience is appreciated. I cannot seem to make lengthy replies without the cursor jumping all around. So, succinct, and please ask for clarity.
Before I begin I wish it to be known that my approach to this subject arises from the perspective of a postcolonial scholar and as a POC. I also believe that NOT ALL white people are bad, even though I and my people have been irreparably harmed for centuries by SOME white people. It took a long time for me to get this. I also believe, and have learned through my studies of the multiplicity, the interrelatedness of things. Having said this, I will try my best to respond. I have taught such a course, developed primarily in conjunction with a First Nation woman. And one can hardly teach every religion known to humankind. One looks upon the the culture/s of place, of the student body, and of the interests of both students and professors. We looked at current issues and prevailing problems. After spending months, and we argued, we presented our proposal. A course suitable in Berkeley, CA, might not be suitable for another city. We spent neatly half a year developing the course with various scholars from different religious backgrounds. We also had Elders and other wise people from SOME lesser known religions give thought to, and participate in the curriculum. We were determined, and it wore us out. It was difficult because we had so few models to guide us. But, yes, it is possible. The example given by HSIN ... is that ignorant racialization or a religious issue? |
Sorry, I had to submit my post prematurally. This is driving me batty. I'm just going to stop for a while and listen.
Thank you for the inquiry. |
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Would you be able to give every school this type of endeavor? I think not, for there aren't many of our Elders left alive. Just because a white person or any one of another ethnic group studies Native Shamanism, it doesn't make them qualified to teach. Ours is just an example. I wouldn't want a Rabbi teaching Taoism, nor a priest teaching Buddhism. These are just a few examples, and I'm sure Pagan doesn't want a Roman Catholic priest issuing examples of Druidism. It just is improper and offensive to those who practice these religions. ETA: college courses are a totally different subject, primary and high school do not have the resources of a college, nor are the students there as willing participants. My .02 |
Corey, perhaps I was not clear: NO white person taught about First Nation religion. And, there were mote than one rabbi because, just as with Christianity, there are more than a single belief system. Which, I might add, seems to be a notion on this thread. Universalizing is the master's tool.
The idea was to see if two doctoral students COULD find a way to do it ... and if, in the paucity of our teaching experiences we could, than it should be possible for those who have mote experience to do so. Actually, it is kind of interesting in that you have the same objections da the conservative folk who nearly killed our project. |
For goodness sakes, we didn't have funds to pay the guest lecturers. We were students, too. A new idea, progressive thinking religious folk ... with openness and creativity, and the desire to make change, to maybe do a good thing, anything can happen
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