Well the point is that the Olivia lesboat was discriminating against transfolks, not that it was wrong to have gay/lesbian only vacations.

i personally have no interest in a lesbian cruise, whether or not i was "allowed" to go on the boat, there would undoubtably be haters present.

Damn bully, I don't think this is really about Olivia not wanting men on their cruise, I get that.

I happen to be with someone who is a guy, so does that mean I get my women's space privileges taken away?

Another thing, let's be honest the reason so many people came on here with their concerns and posts about Olivia cause in another place and time SOMEONE was trying to hoodwink all of us by saying one thing, some people called and got a different story, then SOMEONE came in wagged their finger and stomped their feet and called people names.

THEN what pissed people off more was more evidence was given, and then ALL the Queens Horses and ALL the Queens Gals came in and not only wagged their finger and used academic language to basically say.

Hey mother fucker you don't pay to post here so shut the fuck up.


That's why we all have a sensitive spot when it comes to Olivia and it spilled over here..

I know on my end of the world none of the people in my pack want to participate with Olivia due to well it's women's space and well we all tend to stick together and will not go where trans follk are not welcome.

That's how we roll though.


No one is wanting to take over Olivia's women's space what we have here is a lot of people saying how they feel, some of us with some hurt feelings over it.

Unfortunately it happened in a thread MS started asking us if we are all going.


True story

What people are saying is that we each have an individual choice as to whether we support Olivia by attending their events and giving them our money.

Right now, where I'm at in my life today, I can't imagine spending any amount of time on a boat full of 3,000 lesbians. That's not some place that I would be comfortable. It doesn't sound like fun. Throw me on a boat full of 3,000 gay men, I'd probably have much more fun.

Olivia has the "right" to do whatever they want in the way they structure their business and who they choose to cater to in the same way that I get to decide who I support monetarily. In the past, I did support Olivia and give them quite a bit of my money. That was back when they were a women's music company and not a cruise line.

There seems to be some type of underlying insinuation that we should all support Olivia because they are a woman-owned / lesbian-owned business and that we are somehow "bad lesbians" or anti-lesbian or lesbiphobic if we don't.

I'm a little late getting to this thread, so I apologize if this is repetitive.

I'd like to start by reiterating what was said in previous posts. This is certainly not in any way a comment or attack on the OP.

First, on nycfembbw's post from Olivia GuestServices:

Um, my initial response was "f*** you, Customer Service Jackass". This is completely ridiculous. So if their primary customer base were to suddenly feel "disrupted" by people of color or people with handicaps, would they discourage such customers as well? This answer is so offensive I feel sick.

I'm with you, Billy. I may not be trans or butch, but people that I care about are so Olivia can keep their cruises and we will have way more fun with our INCLUSIVE community elsewhere.

I am more sickened by discrimination within our community than anything. These people KNOW what it's like to suffer fewer rights, ignorance, law's that attempt to make us 2nd class and yet they turn around and behave this way towards another group within our LGBT community?

Jackhammer, thank you for this information. I've never been on a cruise (more the adventure and off-the-beaten path traveler), but I've considered it a few times with friends.

After reading this, I can say I will now never experience a cruise in this lifetime unless some major improvements are made to how these environmental hazards are handled. I'm disgusted in an entirely new way, now.

And I'm passing this along to my friends and family that do enjoy cruises. If they choose to vacation that way, I want to ensure they're informed about their choices.

Ugh!

I personally am not insinuating anything. I have a genuine question.

I don't get it why every fucking time someone or we as a community try to speak of trans issues or transphobia it turns into this.

Why does it seem as soon as to much trans talk happens this whole fear runs amock in whatever thread that lesbians are being attacked..

I have asked several damn times where the hell is all the divisive, phobic statements against lesbians and ism's being said.

Cause god damn it, some of us have some trans folks in our lives who get tired of every time a discussion happens the accusations of lesbians not wanted arises..

Ridiculous.

Snow if you are referring to my post I said what my position on including transwomen was and didn't accuse anyone of anything.

I think there are haters present in any group.

Thanks Snow. I have been reading this thread for days and still am trying to understand. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am supportive of women's space and maybe that is where the difference in opinion lies. As I said earlier I do absolutely think transwomen should be included and if they are not that is transphobic and wrong.

Edit: I am not familiar with the prior incident.

I don't get how you don't understand...

The Original Gender Spectrum tried to hood wink its community with a get together where it is WOMENS SPACE, this is where all the sensitivity is from.



Unfortunately we all took a shit, on MS thread because we all brought our hurt feelings and frustrations and voiced them out in type.

I am gonna be honest here so bare with me.

Once again because some people, who btw are women who do not agree with the bullshit and lies posted.

Then it somehow translated into anti lesbian craziness.

It happens A LOT if trans issues are discussed by the same group of peeps.

It's a tiring pattern.


No one wants Olivia to open up their gates to men. *I* don't think any woman's space should have to

But don't be a liar and say you got a buddy in the system that is gonna make it all better cause well it's not true.

This is what this spill over is from.

True story

Don't be a liar? I'm not lying about anything.

As to the other stuff if you are referring to the cruise set up by another website owner I think the whole thing is bullshit, but I haven't followed the story. I am still on the email list just because it's quite amazing to see just how many ways one person can attempt to make money off of her so-called "community."

OK, ok sorry Snow. I see what the liar part is referring to now. Olivia Cruise is not appropriate for holding a butch femme event. I agree. That was the first thing I said.

I really thought people were saying it was wrong to have vacations geared towards lesbians, but if that is not the case then I think I am clear on things. And yeah, I haven't been following the other story but I can see where it would make things raw.

Thank you.

[QUOTE=gayla;187445]What people are saying is that we each have an individual choice as to whether we support Olivia by attending their events and giving them our money.
Right now, where I'm at in my life today, I can't imagine spending any amount of time on a boat full of 3,000 lesbians. That's not some place that I would be comfortable. It doesn't sound like fun. Throw me on a boat full of 3,000 gay men, I'd probably have much more fun.


I would have to Agree w/ Gayla...About NOT wanting to be on a boat w/ 3,000 lesbians....BUT for me I just am NOT a cruise type person....lesbian OR Straight. I lived in Alaska for 7 years in Fairbanks and saw the people being carted around like Cattle....I would have to agree w/ the rest of those that have posted about Olivia being Unaccommodating to ALL of the Community.

I am NOT a follower SOOO I don't go by what MY friends are doing or as support.....I do it because of the fact that like ANOTHER member stated....I don't support ANY kind of ISM....BE it be Sexuality based, gender based or race based.

and as to what Snow said....Then it somehow translated into anti lesbian craziness.
It happens A LOT if trans issues are discussed by the same group of peeps.

ONLY one person wanted this thread moved because of the fact that is was ANTIlesbian...and ADMIN spoke to her.

I have been following this post ALL the way along...I agree that Olivia is a business and HAS their right to do business how they want....I would rather GO to Alaska Via Ferry w/ friends gay, straight, trans...JUST because there is MORE freedom to DO what U want....travel where U want....and NOT have to follow the rules of a COMPANY. If I was gonna drop money like this ON a vacation it would be to go to like Hawaii to the BIG island...and maybe go to a GENERAL Gay....area....by gay....I mean the Community as a whole.

Thanks

We are not talking about ANOTHER cruise line here .....We all have that option ..The point I was trying to make is YOU and I are not welcome on this ship ....Why would you go and make reservations on a ship you are not welcome on and take the chance of NOT getting your money back or even making it off the dock because you don't want to be a follwer ..This has nothing to do with being a follower ..The facts have been posted here very clearly ...If Me and My butch and trans brothers are not WELCOME period , I am not going ...Has NOTHING to do with I won't be your friend if this person goes or that person goes ...I'm starting to wonder if we are reading the same thread :|

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

MODERATING:

OrganicButch, I am going to ask you to refrain from using terms that are offensive, derisive and inflammatory when posting on this site. There are other ways of getting your point across.

Thank you.

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. :) Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

Wow, I go to work and come back to see all of this...
Since Corkey said to ask me, I shall explain what happened. There was 22 of us that planned this for about a year. If you want the break down it was 9 Femmes, 10 Butches, 2 MTF and one FTM. Mind you, we all pretty much grew up together.
At that time, I was a Stone butch, and looked more like a surfer boy. Yes lesbian as I was venturing into my transitioning. I have no problem with whom or whom ever you may be. I just love my community and I am very protective of our community. Especially my FTM and MTF family. I relate most with because the understand what each other is going through while transitioning. I don't condemn any walk of life. That's the problem, we all start pointing finger and judging way before we actually acknowlede that we all bleed the same!
If some where making the assumtion that I was being disrespectful to the lesbian community than you took the football and ran your own game. I am a lesbian in transitioning of my own choice, I will always love my lesbian community because it is my roots. I just happen to love and respect my femme ladies, because I am Butch/trans.
Now that this is clear. My whole point was that we were disrespected. I don't appreciate that at all. Perhaps I shouldn't have put my story on this thread, BUT. I do have the right to state why I choose not to support or spend my hard own money on Olivia's cruise. If this all started the whole change, then I apologize to anyone I did offend. But in my eyes, I did not insult anyone. I just pointed out why I would never and I said NEVER support that company, ever.
I don't see anything in my post discriminating any gender or claimed group.

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on :) Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

It's always a pleasure to see you :)

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

*smiles Thank you!

Same cruise line Olivia...same people. We actually flew in with Judy Dlugacz. I met Judy years ago when Olivia was a recording company. I have no idea. Did they say you couldn't come? I must be missing something. LOL

does this qualify as he shouldn't come?

I am glad you enjoyed you time on the cruise :) But I think since then they have changed their policy it seems ....They seem to have issues with the more masculine looking Lesbians or butch /stone etc .....As for Me it's a given , I am not surprised by this at all ...:)

My thoughts on this subject:

I think that Olivia cruises has an absolute right to cater their cruises to whoever they want their target audience to be. Hell, we do that here :)
I also have heard some very wonderful stories from people who have gone on Olivia cruises and a few stories where people didn't have such a good time for various reasons. I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

I have personally never been on an Olivia cruise but I have been on Princess cruises. I chose Princess cruises over an Olivia cruise because at the time, it was an issue of cost. (not knowing about the recent communications about their policies). Olivia cruises were, at that time, about 40% more expensive than the other line.

I don't think that people who go on Olivia cruises are bad people at all. I don't think Olivia cruises is a bad cruise line. I do think that their policies for Queer folks can feel exclusionary for Transwomen and masculine folks.

Because of the people who make up the membership of this website, our site will never host a Reunion party or, for that matter, a party of any kind with Olivia cruises or Olivia resorts. We owe it to our membership to consider their safety and comfort when we choose locations.
We won't always be in spaces that are specifically Queer, but we'll do our best to pick an awesome place that is welcoming, accessible, and also financially accessible.

It's just you. That's okay though, I forgive you for thinking that. I really was simply reposting the info because I felt it answered your question. :praying:

Oh I agree with you ..They have every right to cater to whom ever they wish ...And for Me it's a given and I do understand that someone like Me on a Lesbian cruise is not cool :) I have no problem with that ...:) I think it's sad that they are going by looks instead of how someone Id's ...

My point with bulldog and MysticOcean was because of YOUR looks your not getting on that ship ..Doesn't matter how you ID ...And why take a chance with your money , knowing a head of time they will not let you on . :)

I think that the problem is not that an MTF, very masculine appearing butch, or anyone trans identified WILL be discriminated against; it's that if that should happen, Olivia does not take a stand that they have our backs. I was struck that Olivia's response was very sly. Perhaps for legal reasons the customer care director cannot simply say that Olivia doesn't want anyone on the trans spectrum, including lesbian identified MTFs:

"Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?"

The "but" is particularly interesting, as in my world MTFs who ID as lesbian ARE lesbians!

Before I inquired I checked their whole website and noticed that "T" was nowhere in site. Just as at the Mich Fest there are supporters and allies of trans women, so is true at Olivia. But whereas at Mich Fest it's their land and they can dictate (Lisa and Boo), some of the issues might be different legally for a cruise to begin saying who is a certain gender and who is not. That's why I think that the extreme prejudice in the email is so underhanded and "polite." It's very careful. But not careful enough- I'm glad she put it in writing!

It's been awhile since I've thought about Olivia as anything other than the cruise people but when I stop and remember what they used to be, to me personally, it is sad. They did really important things that had a very formative effect on me.