Duality. self vs. other. So what happens, when we realize that...self/other are two sides of the same coin? As a result we are inextricably interconnected. To destroy one is to destroy All. We only hurt our"selves". Until then we are like mice in a wheel, running to stand still.

If gas goes back to 0.99 per gallon, I'll dance a Fandango. Otherwise, I could give a f*** about any of these "villians."

Gas is @ 3.93 here, his death increased prices overnight by 10 cents. Bleah!

$4.14 cents here this morning.
Imagine that.

i feel like it was better to have done it than not although i do not know why Obama ordered kill and not capture. In any case, i am certainly not jubilant.

What i think is important to remember is all of the movements in North Africa and the Middle East to throw off tyranny. Those young people are, for the most part, calling for democracy. Many are more religious than their rulers, but the majority are not calling for theocracy. The Muslim Brotherhood, for example, did not organize the Egyptian uprising. Anyway i think it's important to remember that the region is not the place we imagined it to be after 911.

The Taliban was willing to turn bin Laden over for trial both before and after September 11, 2001. Instead our government opted for years of bloody warfare. And in the end, it was police action (investigation, a raid, and a summary execution) and not the warfare, that reportedly tracked bin Laden down in Pakistan. After capturing him, our government's representatives did not hold him for trial. They killed him and carried away his dead body.

Killing will lead only to more killing. There will be no review of bin Laden's alleged crimes, as a trial would have provided. There will be no review of earlier US support for bin Laden. There will be no review of US failures to prevent the September 11th attacks. Instead, there will be bitterness, hatred, and more violence, with the message being communicated to all sides that might makes right and murder is the way in which someone is, in President Obama's words, brought to justice.

Nothing is actually resolved, nothing concluded, and nothing to be celebrated in taking away life. If we want something to celebrate here, we should celebrate the end of one of the pieces of war propaganda that has driven the past decade of brutality and death. But I'm not going to celebrate that until appropriate actions follow. Nothing makes for peace like ceasing to wage war. Now would be an ideal time to give that a try.

It is around $4.59 for regular in these parts. But look to Wall Street speculators and OPEC. Calls for use of our reserves could drop it almost a dollar a gallon. I say do it! And I do not believe that gas prices are related to this at all or what is going on in Libya. All oil worldwide is on the OPEC exchange system- look at how that is run1

Are you addressing me, Corkey? Because if you are then I take issue with your vast assumptions regarding my knowledge/non-information of ANY situation, military or not. Please refrain from sarcastically attacking my right to speak my mind, my beliefs and my intelligence. Thank you.

And we all know what assuming anything achieves.

Our killing of Saddam Hussein has been followed by years of war and hundreds of thousands of pointless deaths. Our attempts to kill Muammar Gadaffi have killed his children and grandchildren and will end no war if they eventually succeed. Our attempts to kill Osama bin Laden, including wars justified by that mission, have involved nearly a decade of senseless slaughter in Afghanistan and the rest of the ongoing global "generational" war that is consuming our nation.

[QUOTE=Nat;331674]I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.
I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.[/QUOTE]


I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) around me that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious. Talk to people that have had young people in their families fall prey to what Bin Laden and his followers have been doing for years worldwide. There are far more Muslim deaths under his belt.

I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions and customs to!

I am not feeling jubilant about this- I still feel rather numb. But, I am a bit embarrassed by some of the conspiracy theories floating around. The facts are not out yet and there will be mountains of research done from every perspective. Yet, many jump to conclusions long before the facts are out. Many of which never engage in anything other than complaining.

Sometimes I really wish that youth in the US had to do at least a year of some kind of foreign service before entering college or a trade school. Not necessarily military- Peace Corp, vista, red cross, any number of organizations. There should be a system to support all to be able to do this as many do work early to help support their family (but not in our middle class). Go see the world and how other people really live and experience other forms of government. Then, criticize the US with some knowledge outside of your own little world. I can’t relate how many times I hear how spoiled and self-centered kids are in the eyes of middle eastern immigrant families I know. How disrespectful and aimless these people think our kids are. Sometimes, I have to agree.

I have issues with our governmental actions. I certainly have many about our standing with Muslim nations. Yet, to be honest, I see our educational system failing our kids in world affairs and international understanding as well as science and technology. I see far too many kids here without any sense of family honor being instilled in them or responsibility. Maybe it is my age and ethnic background, but how can we build better relations internationally when most of our kids haven’t knowledge of world history or even US history? Let alone an understanding of world religions and cultural differences. And at home, what do we model? “Oh, don’t worry, if you mess up, Mom & Dad will fix it. You don’t need to take responsibility for your actions, let everyone else pay for your mistakes.”

There may very well be some suspicious situations in this. But, I would like to see the varied accounts and the back up sources before making any judgments.

I have seen here and elsewhere the assertion that "we" killed Saddam Hussein, but I believe legally he was in the custody of the Iraqi government during his trial and execution.

I guess whether or not the Iraqi government can be considered part of "we" depends on how sovereign the Iraqi government was considered at the time.

Agreed, and I think until the US, to a significant degree, pulls its troops out of the Middle East and stops influencing the oil market there, we will have to deal with terrorism from that area. People don't often realize that this isn't a war about religion. It's about US presence and interference in sovereign nations and economic Imperialism. At least that is how it all got started. The wars we have waged there have costs countless lives, which just ingrain the hatred of many people in that region.

I neither morn, nor rejoice at his dead.

It was something that simply had to be done.

Why?

Because our goverment said that we would find him and we would kill him.

Once Bush said those words, then it was a done deal.
You can't lose face... Not on that level.

Once those towers fell, The goverment had to show the world that the USA is the biggest, baddest dog on the block.

They had to show the world, that this country would bankrupt it's self, would send thousands of our people to die and spill the blood of anyone that got in our way.

The USA had to strike back harder than we were stricken.

This was not about bringing anyone to justice, getting rid of a monster, making the world a better place....

This was vengence and revenge.

Do I agreee with it?

No.. Hate breeds hate, war breeds war, and no one ever really wins.

There will be retibution, of course there will be, neither sides can afford to be seen as weak.

There is no end to it... not really... War is the human condition

Let me tell you about one of America's young people, none of whom i am disappointed in.

Jesus is now 23, i guess. He is married and expecting a child. He is married to his high school sweetheart. He grew up in one of the most violent and gang-ridden neighborhoods in Northern California. He was a drug dealer, a fairly successful one for his age. He decided that he wasn't going to survive in that life, and he didn't want to die. He loved his girlfriend (now his wife), and didn't want her to lose him. So he enlisted. He was sent to Iraq. While he was there, he completed an online undergraduate degree from a respected university. He saved all the college money that the military owed him and paid for it himself. He also saved from his pay and bonuses. He is home and ready to enter a Master's Program with enough savings to pay for it without dipping into his military college money, which is 55K. He can pass that money on to his child, which is his plan.

The rest of the story is the five stars Jesus has tatooed in his arm. They represent the five people he had to kill to stay alive in Iraq. Two of them are children. Jesus looks at those stars every day and lives with the deaths on his soul -- his words. So he got out of a life of crime and poverty. The military helped him, but look at the price he had to pay. He is OK. He is healthy and bright and driven. And he does not deny what he did. He lives with it. He is a good human being. These are our youth. These are the people who represent us overseas. i, for one, am extremely proud of them.

Hi AtLast -

I wanted to address a few of your points (I would address more fully, but I am at work and at the mercy of time and my iphone).

"I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious."

GW is seen by many as a war criminal, and many people could say he is not a "true" Christian, but if his body were dumped in the ocean without a funeral, I'm pretty sure many people (Christian or not) would be upset about it.

However, this issue is somewhat moot since it has been reported that he did receive a proper send-off. I still think it was a weird decision to dump his body in the ocean. I didn't even know it was legal to dump a body in the ocean as a means of burial.

"I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!"

This sort of tit-for-tat logic could justify anything - no matter how horrific. I'm going to hold with the belief that any number of wrongs don't make a right.

My previous posts are an effort to elicit thoughts of both accountability and peace. My words, albeit at times admittedly inflammatory, are never written to belittle, denigrate or devalue years spent in service to our country. In any capacity. I take issue with the waging of any war. I take issue with war as a suspension of all morality.

Has the military been besmirched in this thread?

I won't make this into a Religious Debate, I will say this though..
Asshole, Demon, supreme ayatollah of the Meanest, cruelest sick fuckin sumbitches in Existence, He's still a Muslim...
Whether 3...5...10,000, or 4 million claim he isn't, that they don't agree with his views is an entirely different matter, I'm more than sure any Educated Muslim will agree that only 1 can come down from where ever and say "Hypocrite, Leave".
And the 1 aint even Human.
Wanna go 2 out of 3?
That's the closest to Roman Catholics saying "Ok, my daughters not only gay but s/he's going to Transition...The Pope decries this, and yet she's always been a devout Catholic...Maybe she's not."
I say closest because everyone has their own thoughts on what is, and what isn't, if we listened to all of the "what isn't" we'd be screwed front and back.
To say they gave him a Proper Islamic treatment, w/o proof is like saying (no offense to kabbalists/haredi) the Baal Shem Tov was given a proper Kaddish by muslim Clerics.
They could've very well aprehended him, like Saddam, escorted him to Saudi Arabia, whom btw, to my knowledge, allied themself with the United States AND praised their actions upon notice of his Death.
Like Saddam, he would've faced a severe Trial, unlike Saddam[if I have right info.] it would be a judgment handed down by his Peers.
In accordance with Laws he claimed to revere far more than he'd ever give 2 squirts of piss within Our Judicial system, why? Easy, Shari'ah, contrary to most Western...and some European thoughts, is the word of Allah, something he claims to Love more than his own children..
Could u imagine how tarnished his reputation would've been had he been on trial and threatened them??
After all the shit he's slung in the name of Allah, you actually believe they'd let him go unscathed?
As for Gas, that shit's gonna go up anyways, with or w/o bin Laden news, hell...It started shooting for the stars when the civil unrest occurred in Egypt.

As for showing the Corpse, regardless again that he's the next worse thing to Hitler, there is such a think as our own Humanity, and respect for it...
Had they shown every gruesome picture in Gorey living Color, do you think they wouldnt hit the roof, like they did when the incident of Abu Ghraib occured?{btw, nice punishment to those officers}
I too come from a Military Family, Half of my biological Fathers family are muslim, 4 muslims served in Air Force, Army, and Marines, my father included.
I almost did, but both my health and my youth fucked me over.
My heart goes out to the Troops putting their lives on the Line for OUR freedom to say and do precisely This -waves at this forum-
I have Friends who're married to Soldiers, have Children in Service...
I've spent weeks consoling very cherished Friends sadness after their Spouse was deployed within weeks of returning Home..
I'm as much a Patriot as anyone else...
I will happily call Bullshit, if I see it, smell it or Feel it.
I'll gladly debate till the Cows come home, I won't pay attention or tolerate insults tho.

[theoddz, didnt Gandhi say that ? awesome]
G'day

Al-Azhar University's grand Imam -&- others decries "proper burial" at Sea

Hi Nat-

I do see your points. My comments ("I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!") - came at the heels of phone conversations with a family member in NYC and a friend there who lost several friends and co-workers after calling them last night upon hearing this news.

No- two wrongs do not make a right. I do have a problem with some of the dismissal of what family members of 9/11 victims have gone through. As well as for those that did rescue work and were just close to the Towers, the Pentagon and in PA. This event is very different for them- many have suffered PTSD for years now as well as other difficulties. I felt like I was talking to them as I did within a short time after the attacks as far as how they were feeling last night.

I have issues with many US actions, however, sometimes I don't think we all think before spouting off in these matters. Think about the fact that our site reaches many people all over not only the US and Canada but the world that have gone through some horrible things.

But, yes, I understand where you are coming from.

Thanks for this link- the burial at sea does not seem to be getting much attention in terms of it being properly sanctioned by Islamic Law on any media I get.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

Guess I'm the only one here
 

I'm not ashamed to say that if I lived close to Ground Zero, I'd be right there with that mob celebrating, shouting USA.....USA at the top of my lungs and waving the US flag.

We've waited 10 long years for this day. Happy???? You're damn right I am!!



We've got one fuckin' rockin' military!! Thank God for Pres Obama!!!

I think celebrating in the streets (and on the internet) dog-whistles approval to the people who are willing to do things like this:

Maine Mosque Vandalized Following Bin Laden Death

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...1/05/islam.jpg

On Monday in Portland, ME the walls of the largest mosque in town were spray-painted with "Osama today, Islam tomorow [sic]" and other phrases, sometime following morning prayers on the day after American forces killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan.

While I so respect your integrity here and sense of spirituality (if I may say?)... I would ask:

*Does not everyone grieve differently and their sense of justice is entitled to them? (Individually, as they see/feel fit?)

*Can you compare the war with Iraq with this "mission"... one having NOTHING TO DO with 9/11? (And many civilians and children lost...?)

*The other "wars" having so many "casualites" and this one mission... having none (for the U.S. or civilians in the area).

*Are you considering the loss/feelings of the victims of the 9/11 families and friends? If they feel a sense of justice, are you angry at THEM?

*Has the majority of innocent "killings" (including WRONG coutries - for going to war against) regarding 9/11 happened during President Bush or under President Obama? Is this NOT an important distinction to make at this time?

*If he (The POTUS) said that it was a priority for his candicacy/presidency... do "get - capture or kill" Bin Laden, has he not done his job then? (That folks wanted this when they elected him.)

*Do you suppose, if MLK was alive today, he would he say... "now, no Blacks in THIS operation against a force that took down our country on 9/11"? (You quote him for "peace", which I why I write this.)
__

I don't understand why folks are questioning NOW what they voted for. Not YOU, but in general. (I don't know who you voted for.) However, the most serious attack on American soil happened that day, and now there is a sense of "justice". Whether one believes in this or that, that he was just KILLED without a snot's chance of surrendering, etc... Do, you think this guy went down without a fight, who once lived in the hills the way he did and conduct countless murderous attacks...? He was in a very comfortable place, a mansion - if you will... knocking down exactly that type of living/lifestyle he preached AGAINST. Folks lived around his greater area lived in slums... (I wonder, did he give those poor folks money, or just for "his cause" against Western Civilization?) And although, I'm not into the "snuffing out" of folks... and many of us have trouble with our "government" and their actions at times, WHY would anyone be upset -- with/and or questioning the president HERE? What a HUGE MEGA gamble this was - for HIM at this time... like he would LIE (?!). Someone who HAS to dot his "I's" and cross his "T's" UNLIKE ANY OTHER president before himPlease, tell me this is NOT BIGOTED? (Not you, the public... since he became president?!)

THANKS!

*WILDCAT

Please refer to POC as their nationality not a color. Please and thank you...

Rook?
I have no idea what you said.
What was the meaning or the ending of your post?

if martin luther king were alive, he might [hard to know it's impossible/hypothetical] still use terms familiar to his speeches - 'black, white, et c.'

pondering topics within this thread; my friend here now, says he prefers 'black,' and we then found this:

Surveys show that the majority of Black Americans have no preference for whether "African American" or "Black" is employed to describe them, although they also show that there is a slight preference for "Black" in personal settings and "African American" in more formal settings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people

From Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech, "Beyond Vietnam -- A Time to Break Silence" which was delivered in protest to the war in Vietnam, I think it's reasonable to think he might have meant what he said in that quote posted above.

Please don't tell a POC what term is ok to use cause Wikipedia says so.