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IF Dusa were hell bent on 'trashing' B/F.com, then I'm sure that she is more than capable of coming up with something far more damning than what she supposedly came up with here.
Not being confrontational, simply stating what, to me, seems fairly obvious. Words |
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I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article
As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word. Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation? |
They are all old words given new meaning. They'll never go away, just have a slight variance in definition and meaning with each generation.
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My gay/queer friends think I am out there in the lunatic fringe...which cracks me up. I think this is a great subject for this Website. It is relevant and stands alone. |
Interesting Article:
The death of femme The butch-femme dynamic is dead for women under 30, who only want to date tranny bois like them. FEMMES ARE OUT of fashion. So posits my friend Coya, and I wonder if she might be right. When she says “out of fashion,” she means that feminine lesbians are now being marginalized in a new way. The gold standard, of course, has long been butch. Since I came out 13 years ago, most lesbians try to be butch, especially when they first come out. Some women were just always tomboys, and lesbians welcome them the way they are. But even women who love lace and frills often try out butchness. Partly I think that’s because being butch, even for a little while, is a good way to shake off the many chains that women wear. It’s a good way to learn that you don’t have to be vulnerable to be valuable, that you don’t have to be pretty to be attractive, that you can be smart and strong and loud, and women will not only be OK with that, but they’ll want to sleep with you. Also, short hair, a boyish way of walking, an eschewing of make-up, jewelry and high heels, makes us more recognizable to each other, and so it is not surprising that single lesbians might aim to proclaim their lesbianism as loudly as possible. BUT FOR THE first time that Coya or I can remember, not only don’t most younger lesbians want to be femmes — but they don’t want to date them, either. The butch-femme dynamic is all but dead for women under 30. I’m not crying about that. I myself always felt trapped when I was the femme half of a butch-femme couple. It’s not easy being the one who is always expected to be weaker, more emotionally savvy, less able to protect herself, more easily moved to tears. It was hard to keep my temper when women called me “Bambi” or compared me to various porn stars just because I happen to be well endowed. These things are cyclical, of course. Another friend who came of age in the androgynous 1980s says she was horrified by how butch-femme couples dominate the lesbian scene. It seemed to her an aping of heterosexual conventions, a trend that bought into the idea that only masculine people could be paired with feminine ones. Yet with the demise of the butch-femme couple comes the general idea that femmes aren’t dating material. YOUNG WOMEN WHO once called themselves butch now call themselves tranny bois, and these tranny bois are mostly dating each other. This is interesting, and I wonder why. Are femmes not trangressive enough in our new gender queer era? Are they not playful enough with gender roles? Are tranny bois and androgynous lesbians worried that femmes are a trap that would force them into more traditional butch roles? Or is it really that young lesbians are simply not attracted to women who are feminine? Let’s face it: When it comes to curvy, feminine women, lesbians may preach acceptance. We may pay lip service to it. After all, we have been acculturated to accept all body types, at least theoretically. We celebrate thin women, boyish women, curvy women, chubby women, stocky women, butch women, femme women, androgynous women. Every woman’s body, every woman’s gender identity, is OK with us. Only it’s not. Neither Coya nor I are immune from this general social pressure. Coya, a self-described femme, prefers boyish women. I tend to date more androgynous women — usually women with boyish bodies who wear lipstick, or who slide easily between femme-ish and butch-ish. Think Alice on “The L Word.” Or really, any of the women of “The L Word,” who are too butch to be femme and too femme to be butch. We might say that any woman’s body is OK with us, but what we say is not who we date. We might have an aesthetic that says that curvy women are beautiful, but we are attracted to women who don’t have curves or who play them down. The gender queer contingent among lesbians are our current taste-makers; where they go, so go we all. Femmes, I’m sure, will come back into fashion some day. But until they do, I wonder if we will continue to make room for all the ways we express gender. http://www.sovo.com/2005/5-27/view/columns/femme.cfm |
I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?
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The author of the article has some interesting points, but she has one huge point she is missing; what a Femme IS.
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It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.
It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently." Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f. I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going. Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example. What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone. |
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I went digging around the interwebz for more info and indeed you are speaking a valid point. I thank you for that. Again, you are correct about the median age on most of the b/f sites I have been too. I wish we had MORE young people and to do so means listening to you all with respect. I respect you immensely. Thank you a million times for coming back and posting when it is uncomfortable. |
passe ?
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If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle. Nothing like a little chaos with color ! Boots Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated', becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about. I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me. I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves. I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to share their experiences and thoughts. |
I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving. Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering? Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY! Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that. I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy. |
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Mad love!
Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture? Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them? Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic. I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will. I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name). Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing) |
Does the buck stop here?
Or more aptly the butch?
I just repped Selenay because I enjoyed her perspective, but also feel that her information was met with some degree of denial or hostility by a few others. And thats OK too. I will tell you, for me, its a hard pill to swallow. I remember seeing old, old, old (probably at least in their fifties, shit, thats me...) bull dykes, daggers, walking around. Looking tired in their leather, sporting mullets, doing the whole flannel shirt thing. And while I appreciated their "breaking ground" for me, I didnt want to be that when I grew old. I wanted to fly my own flag- And here I am, partnered with a femme, having worked hard through the years to maintain my identity and paying some heavy prices for being so identifiable. I sit here, thrilled to be me, knowing I am in my place, settled in my Butchness, and LOVING my Femme, but wondering what the younger generation thinks about us "oldsters" . I dont feel defensive, just thoroughly interested in our..yes OUR younger generation and the direction they see themselves going. |
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I agree that my younger friends are mostly andro and call themselves queer rather than Butch or Femme... Thank you for trying to keep us up to date! :) (f) Quote:
Thank you! My screen name cracks me up too. :) When I came out back in my 20's, it was scandalous to be Femme and it seems to still be (I kind of like being scandalous so no prob for me). Yes, there have been times where it seemed really cool to be Butch...but that just may be because to me Butches have always been cool and fun to be around. I also did not take this as a fighting subject. I am fine with however people want to ID as long as there is somewhere I can feel welcome being me. It has been my experience that andro Queers/Lesbians have looked down on girls like me. Giggled when walking in the bar. Talked about. Asked when I was going to grow up, etc. |
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Cynthia says when I am mad I am Chuckie. :) |
My whole tiff with the concept is
There happen to be many younger butches and femmes who id as butches and femmes so how this concept that the younger generation no longer uses these terms and we need to embrace changing times and new terms with our old ids outdated in yester year is way off base.
Personally I think terms like stud have been around and should be embraced anyway as any given day I could be called either and I respond as I get the context of it is very similar I still id as butch 1st however cuz it's the term I most relate too and always will. Anyhow in spite there being other terms that should have always been welcome as many others have been there is no need deem butch or femme old terms as the classics don't get old and there is modern young butches and femmes everywhere other then online there for reasons beyond being open to other terms that have been around forever now that have been deemed new when they are not. I don't see young butches and femmes disappearing off the face of the planet nor do I see stud and other terms the new butch/femme but rather another side of butch/femme that has been around and will be around as long as butch/femme which is an attraction as timeless as boy meets girl and trust me it's not going anywhere as I see an even more open and growing generation of butches and femmes to follow. |
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*chuckles* I'm glad we are not having the age discussion. Bright and Beautiful is my shining star! :awww: Sincerely, Her old as dirt Butch |
I am no expert on how the younger generation are iding, but I see a lot of truth in what ToppDyke says. Genderqueer seems to dominate a lot of online stuff that I see, and certainly it's a term that a lot of people resonate with- which is totally cool. But there are whole other worlds out there, whole other communities out there-both online and real time- Stud and Butch identities- as an example- that are quite a bit removed from what dominates the airwaves on the major Butch Femme sites.
Just this morning I was doing some searches on Studs, because the voices of some of the younger Studs that I read and listen to in videos really do resonate with me even though I am a 47 year old white butch. There are some really great voices out there- very savvy, very aware, who incorporate masculinity within a woman-centric, community based framework- at least that is my take on it. I am loving what I am finding. Not seeing much of it at butch femme sites. |
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This was a great analogy for me (and maybe others resonate) Brilliant, PapaC. :bowdown: ;) Thank you! |
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That's really the point of my posting at all; I don't care if I'm dismissed, if you think I'm irrelevant and my post is, as well. Really, you're entitled to your opinions (even if they're wrong) just like I am. My big issue is that there are so few other young people here. Why do we think that is? Is it, perhaps, because they were treated the same way I have? I've been on butch-femme websites since I was sixteen, so I've kind of grown up with a tough skin. What about people who haven't? What about people who don't know that when people are percieved as being mean, they aren't? Nothing ever dies. Let's go back to the dead harpsichord--that became the piano. Latin became French and Spanish and Italian. Their evolution is what keeps them alive--why do we still know what Latin is while most people have never heard of Yana or Jassic? Latin became something new. Quote:
I'll be a poodle with you only if you'll be bunnicula with me every wednesday. Quote:
Do you think that your own evolution of New Femme from Old Femme is a demarcation of a shift in Butch/Femme? I can't speak as to whether or not it's a change in the terminology or the culture, but my opinion is that the gay culture is shifting away from strict guidelines of what gender is, away from the binary of masculine and feminine, and that's affecting butch/femme. Quote:
You're all old and mean but some of you can cook really well so we'll keep you around til we get your recipes but after that we're actually going to get rid of you. |
I think what it all boils down to for me is this:
I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return. Language discussions that revolve around age are, you will pardon the pun, as old as the hills. "Kids these days" will all too soon be "the older crowd" and the "older crowd" will be ...well, not present. So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use. |
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I have never put much energy into thinking about other people's choices unless they directly affect me. I think growing up in a multicultural home taught me tolerance for diversity as I exited the womb.
Femme fits perfectly for me because the term is a HUGE umbrella. There are so many layers to me, I can't simply identify as Transensual Femme, Stone Femme, etc....Being Femme or Butch is complex. There's no one way to do it. If this ideaology doesn't work for the next person that's cool, because there's only one Duchess (thank God) and there's only one you. The important thing is to follow your instinct and not stay within the lines for definition's sake. :) Duchess |
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And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it". And just for the record: From Dictionary.com antiquated - 4 dictionary results an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA Use antiquated in a Sentence See web results for antiquated See images of antiquated –adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes. 2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine. 3. aged; old: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing. |
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(yes, I said hub-bub). |
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I think I finally understand what it means to get old. The generation gap concept has been epiphanized. |
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What I have heard from the 21 crowd here in DFW is the "younger crowd" is more gender fluid and doesn't want to be boxed into a label. Maybe this isn't some new phenomena. It seems to be history repeating itself as others have said. If I remember back to when I was that age, it seems others that age around me felt the same way. Too busy doing other things rather than being too serious about dissecting ones self/soul/reflecting on the deeper meaning of it all. I've always heard and believe it's true for most that the 20s are about figuring out who you are. And in our 30s we finally accept ourselves. I'm sure that might explain why BF sites don't have a larger younger audience. Many in the younger generation haven't figured out yet if they are more butch, more femme, both or none of the above, and haven't figured out yet what specific type of person they are more attracted to. Not to mention, no telling how many times their minds, feelings, wants, needs and desires change. They are just being, experiencing and trying to see what fits and feels best. I have heard for the first time in all of my Gay Life a 21 year old refer to herself as a Femmestick!!! LoL! What has been very interesting to me is being off the BF sites for a few years and coming back and seeing even the over 30 and up generation now coming out of the Butch/Femme boxes/labels and/or expanding them. I have to say I love a feminine Femme...I hope she never vanishes and there are always some of her around! |
Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.
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The_Lady_Snow - you totally freaking rock - you are femme in all your glory!!!
Apoc - Femme is definitely not antiquated in my book. Yes, there does seem to be some defensiveness in this discussion, based around perceived fear that we will be erased as a culture. It's understandable. Yes, my hackles raise when I think about butch/femme becoming obsolete. In my case though, it has more to do with losing our history than with my identity in particular. You see, I'm gonna be butch until the day I die (and if there's more after that I'll be butch then too). Regardless of how terms may shift, I will always be a butch - no one can take that away from me. What raises my hackles is a fear that we will lose/forget our history. Butch/femme is what started the lesbian community (lesbians existed long before, but butch/femme created the first organized community). This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing. |
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I think the wonder of the internet is that we, all of us together, are writing a history of the human race that will last as long as technology lasts... look at the books which are being put online, the movies, the music, the plays, the art--we as a race are archiving our own history as fast as we are able, to save it all. This is unprecedented, you know. We've never had the capability before, never had a way for an average person to make a mark on history like this, never had a way for entire countries to preserve their culture like this. And, for what might well be the very first time ever and certainly for the first time in recorded history, OUR culture, our gay, Queer culture, is a huge part of the archive. This is a wonder to me. What an amazing time to be alive, when my words--the words of one small life--can be part of the actual archive of history! This is our story. We're writing it together, all of us, from everywhere around the world. |
I am a Femme. I was born a Femme and was one before I even heard the word. I embrace it and it is how I identify. I looove the term. And I also love the term "Butch", and the Butch/Femme dynamic. I find that it encompasses all that I love about myself, my own identity, and the ID of my partner. However, I do realize that these are my own personal preferences. I would never presume to label anyone with an ID not of their own choosing. I think what it all comes down to is respect. I do not disdain any new manner of identifying, on the contrary, I celebrate and embrace whatever identity one chooses to use to define themself. I just ask that I be allowed the same freedom of expression. No one has to agree with my choice of identity..they just need to respect it.
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Sure Apocalipstic.... I LOVE antiquated Femmes :cheer: !!! ;) |
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I have thought more on Selenay's post and with the help of others that have done a better job of listening and responding to it, I think I grasp what she is saying. Out of curiosity, I would like to see where the generational evolution of human/sexuality/identities flows to. I think what is now called butch-femme will still navigate it's own river. Just as strong as it was and is. Kosmo |
I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?
Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are. |
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To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) ) So what would be a "modern" term for femme? |
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