Hi Cheryl,
Perhaps because I have been out for three decades, I have indeed run into more than a few femmes who acted exactly as I described. Of course I agree that most femmes have evolved since the 70's and 80's, but as I told T-Rex, I recently dated three blast from the past gimme gimme-style femmes, and it freaked me out. I should have slept on it a few more days before posting. I'm sorry if I ruffled your feathers with my Neanderthal grumblings. Subtlety has never been my long suit.(f)

oy!
 

"Ruffled your feathers"

WTF, are you a troll? Or really that fucking dense?


Maybe just MAYBE you pick douche bag dates because you get what you give?


Seriously, stop typing...

WTF? What's wrong with the term, "ruffled your feathers"? What should I have used, some banal cliche that's generic enough to suit everyone? The name calling in your post is what's really offensive. Then to cast aspersions on my dates by calling them douche bags? You've ruffled my feathers and I suspect you're they type who must have the last word, so go ahead, then please block me.
This thread was between me and two women, but had nothing to do with you. Yet your excess aggression said more more about you than me. Bye now.

Your profile sums it all up. :firetruck:

Regardless of a situation, I find making a date with someone while out with someone else, the HEIGHT of bad manners!

Is this how we greet new people to the site?
 

Folks-

We are getting reported posts for this thread.

This thread is not in the Red Zone and therefore, this should not be a free-for-all for name-calling or getting too personal.
Please be civil to one another and do your best to choose language that is thoughtful and accessible.

Yes, this thread is going to bring up static for some folks but that doesn't mean we need to be cyber-slapping the shit out of each other.

Thanks,
Medusa aka Admin

Jane Bond- Perhaps your use of the term 'ruffled feathers' wouldn't sound quite as dismissive had you not prefaced it with your previous dismissive and sexist posts. 'Ruffled feathers' is one way that men habitually speak about women who remind them of clucking hens. I have no feathers to ruffle, being an adult woman, and all. In fact, I was and am legitimately disgusted by your language and your attitude. I should remind you that YOU ARE a woman. When you write in a derogatory way about women in general, you're writing about yourself.

I was rather gentle in my first response to you. I advise you not to poke me again.

I agree with Homoe, it was very bad manners to make another date right in your face, Ia m sorry that happened.

However, who cares if its butch/butch, femme/femme, etc, as long as it is between two conseual adults then it shouldn't matter.

I live by the 3 f's, If you AREN'T Financing, Fucking or Feeding me, then your opinion doesn't matter.

See, I think that it is only the one I am fucking whose opinion matters.

My parents' opinion when they were financing and feeding me really didn't matter (maybe their rules, but not their opinions on me as a person).

Since then, I have financed and fed myself.

But, I do care about the opinion of those I fuck.

The end.

It means that others opinions aka outsiders don't matter, not the people you are fucking, etc.

Actually no, it isn't all better; that last sarcastic bit made it just that much worse. It is actually very easy to avoid generalizations by saying something like "the women I have dated" do this or that. Your statements, and I'm sure you are very aware, were meant to bring all femmes into this shitty stereotype you've put out there. Perhaps you should broaden your horizons and meet a few femmes that can actually pump their own gas, cut their own meat, and make a living for themselves.

Back to the topic...

Although I've always considered myself open-minded, I recognize that I had some very close-minded ideas in my early 20's. I'm ashamed to admit, but I thought bisexuals were afraid of commitment, and butches wanted to be like men. However, at the same time, I was one of the few in the queer community at large who understood, and lived, the butch-femme dynamic. That was a no-no in those days; in fact, being femme was frowned upon where I lived. I was accused of "trying to pass for straight."

Over the years I came to realize that people can be fluid in their gender identity, and who they love, fuck, build lives with, etc. can also be fluid.

As long as people are happy, and it's consensual, it's all good.

I know, buddy, I was tired and in a quirky mood. I was just messing around. :)

Okay LOL!:seeingstars:

Thanks Fever, I really appreciate it.
I hate to admit it, but I did most of my lesbian community & PC feminist stuff back in grad school and college, then I got a job, into a LTR and we both drifted away from the latest in Sapphic theory.
The femme behavior I described used a bit of hyperbole, because I had no idea this site was so stacked with PC police, Feminist volunteer editors and other literal types.
I don't back down easily if an issue is important and in real time, but a disagreeable website comment someone made would not make the list.
I am rather new here, but after a few comments, I felt like a thousand ducks had pecked me so I got lost for a while.
As memory serves, I've apologized to a few members whom I had offended, but I'd really prefer to speak my mind and make mistakes in order to learn the newest trends in BF relationships, even if I sound antiquated.
Teaching I like, lecturing, not so much.

No Sh*t! We had just slept together the night before and that always signals to me a rapid approaching commitment. woops.

It's ok. I get fucked off because I tend to wind up with butches who: want me to be a house maid and do all the cleaning, do all the cooking, make sure we are on par with writing budget costs, play nursey for them whenever they get sick, look after their dog(s) when they are hung over, do the grocery shopping, do all the admin stuff with bills and letters, talk to the health services and bank and gas people if they call and out my number as the contact, talk to their parents and charm them when they don't want to talk to them, deal with their siblings in the same way, buy the birthday and Christmas presents for their family members, remind them of appointments, do their fucking laundry, and because I'm a massage therapist, give them a nice rub too. All while I'm working to bring in cash.

Cause I'm the girl. And if I don't do it, I'm a selfish princess and they pull the Little Lord Fauntleroy move of sulking in a corner for days and expecting me to emotionally care take and suck up and ask whats wrong honey?

And this is why I don't ever, ever want to live with someone again. I know it's not all butches. Just mostly the ones I attract as I'm a giant magnet because I'm codependent and *will* care take to exhaustion because of my upbringing. People will take advantage of that self destructive streak of mine.

So I'm going to date but only who don't want a domestic servant, PA and nurse because I won't be living with them.

That crosses about 90% of folks off the list. That's ok. I'd rather be on my own and happy, than taken for granted and sad and tired and lonely over it.

I've been single 3 years now and it's bliss. And I am thinking about femme daddies.

Also, my dyke flatmate has her gf over and she's cleaning the house for us every day. I've never had a housewife before. Fuck me, having a maid is great!

Which only underlines why I ain't doing it anymore lol

If you want a house cleaner - hire one
If you want a PA - hire one
If you want a massage therapist my rates are $90 for 60 minutes.

If you want a companion, a friend, someone to laugh with and hot sex, let's hang out.

Femme Daddies and strapping Stems included.

I think we all get fed up when we let others take advantage of things we aren't good with, with our boundaries. Solution? Get better boundaries.

Oh, as an aside

We only have the words you use to go on. No tone, no body language. So unless you type #hyperbole #imbeinoverdramatic next to what you write, we have no idea you don't mean what you say.

And that's Dutchess Feminazi to you.

Dear Dutchess Feminazi,
As far as body language goes, I always stand up to post messages so I can twerk. As I twerk and type, I read aloud in a voice that tries to imitate Leonard Cohen.
As far as meaning what I say; to tell you the truth, sometimes I lie.
Ooops, just kidding.
:jester:

[QUOTE=imperfect_cupcake;1027939]It's ok. I get fucked off because I tend to wind up with butches who: want me to be a house maid and do all the cleaning, do all the cooking, make sure we are on par with writing budget costs, play nursey for them whenever they get sick, look after their dog(s) when they are hung over, do the grocery shopping, do all the admin stuff with bills and letters, talk to the health services and bank and gas people if they call and out my number as the contact, talk to their parents and charm them when they don't want to talk to them, deal with their siblings in the same way, buy the birthday and Christmas presents for their family members, remind them of appointments, do their fucking laundry, and because I'm a massage therapist, give them a nice rub too. All while I'm working to bring in cash.<<<

You really mean that you've encountered some butches who are that demanding and locked in that kind of 1950s male husband stereotype? I have never met a femme who would do all that, or any butch who expected her femme to act that way. The femmes I have known and loved have been feminists, had careers, took no sh*t, but they were nurturing, sexy, fun to be around and willing to split household duties and expenses 50/50. Not to mention the lingerie, ooh la la.

You know it's funny the things that pop up on your screen and catch your attention on any given day. So I saw this thread and my old self would have just scanned and moved on, but my new self feels the need to comment.

I have evolved as a person and moreso a gay person over the years....and anyone who knows me will tell you that I adore femmes and the energy they exude. Let me also say that I feel that everyone should love and enjoy whomever they wish with the obvious caveats attached.

I detest labels but sometimes you just need to wear one...I am a female identified butch, that is but one "label". I've noticed that at times the energy that exudes from someone just gets to me and I've been even more surprised that it's from another butch. I readily admit that this has been with online conversation and has led to some very hot and intimate discussions....so the butch/butch desire doesn't seem so taboo to me anymore. I'm not sure if I could pursue this in real time but you know I've learned never say never. Life is too short not to enjoy it and with whoever brings the joy to you.

Dear twerking bootch

Please include pictures or video with post so we can see the body language clearly. Understanding your interpretive dance is important to us. If possible, please have subtitles on your underwear.

Glitter rainbow kisses
Dutchess Feminazi

[quote=Jane Bond;1028082]It's starts off that way. Then several years later it winds up being very different. I'm no carpet. I would never agree to such a thing. But four years later, after an egalitarian start, that is, very much what happens. I'm not old school. I'm post modern and feminist. Yet, still shit happens. I'm not blaming others- like I said before, when you posted about the *other* women you dated... The ones who were not like the ones in your above quoted post? The "gimme gimme" femmes (your descriptors) that you dated? Member talking abut those ones?

I will repeat what I said previously, I need better boundaries so that slippage doesn't happen four years later. I don't personally trust myself that after years of being with someone happens, and their behaviour starts doing what others have done, I will say clean up your act or hit the highway. I didn't with my exwife, instead I made allowances and excuses because life was being hard to her. And I loved her and cared about her.

It's not always simple. I find things go very much into dynamics that slowly slip, over the years, when living with someone. So, my choice is to just not. They have their place, I have mine. We treat each other's houses like little holidays. I've always preferred that. They do their own house chores, I hire a cleaner for mine (I'm not a haus frau), my money is mine and theirs is theirs to do with as they wish, not my biz. I can invite my mates over for a cocktail at 10pm, I don't have to ask if it's ok.

I just like the set up better. Keeps my sex drive healthy to have my own space.
I feel better about my boundaries. They don't have to be my daddy ALL the time, and I'm not their mum. I just like our independence :)

Different boats, different floats. :wine:

Good luck with yours

It's funny - I'm not used to reading comments like the ones posted by Jane in this space but wow do I ever hear those comments in person, especially one-on-one. In the real world, Jane's perspective is unfortunately the norm in some places. Happily not here.

A while back, I crossed a few butches off the dating list for complaining about what femmes are like in what seemed like a cartoonish way. It feels like in the real world - at least in central Texas - people either don't know what a femme is at all or imagine we are cartoons. As I told a friend at the time though, I'm done teaching femme 101. *shrug*

As far as butch and butch goes :) - if I were butch, I would be all about it.

Really??? ======

Wow, I like this side of you about 95% better. Could you please send me pics of you demonstrating what you want to see me doing in pics?
BTW...My unicorn horn feels very firm tonight.

:rrose::mistletoe:

Sincerely,
TwerkyB

[quote=imperfect_cupcake;1028105]<<<<<

I understand what you're saying, and I'm pleasantly startled to realize I feel almost the same way. By that I mean I may want to settle down in the same house with a partner one day, but it's not going to be anytime soon. Yeah, I recall mentioning the gimme gimmes, but I was freshly back on the dating scene and my picker had to be recalibrated several times at first.
I like women like I like wine--the older the vintage...nevermind... I don't want to draw any more gunfire.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Wow, I feel like the donkey in a game of pin the tail on the donkey.
I have to admit, I don't have much experience with sites like this where people free-style their comments. Perhaps (hopefully) I am making all the mistakes right away so I can get past them asap. Or...maybe I am a donkey. Hmm.

<<<

That was funny! I think that phase has slowed down considerably 4 me.
I figured out what the deal was with that butch thing. I recently changed colognes, and this new one is some kind of space age molecular lab project that contains only alcohol and one ingredient that is supposed to meld with the user's body chemistry and amp it up so people either don't notice it at all or they ask what it is, follow you home, try to get in your car, or lick you on the neck.
I think butches must like it because they usually don't respond to me like that---all smiley and twinkly eyed. But it turns out femmes like it, too! WooHoo!
There is another cologne called Pheromone that attracts men and butches but ... I gave my bottle to my straight sister.

[quote=Jane Bond;1028788]
We'll thing is, people here are just as opinionated as you are. I've gotten into full on scraps with lots of people here, mostly years ago. I got my arse handed to me on a plate a few times. I stuck around and learned how to socially understand posting in large forums.

Understanding number one - people don't know context to your comments unless you actually tell them.
Understanding number two - saying, yeah, ok that was kinda shit. Sorry. And meaning it rather than trying to always keep a wry upper hand works well. But then I used to apologise for a living and having to explain to hospital workers that saying "sorry" to patients saved a fuckton of bad feelings, upset and me having to mediates formal complaint.

Cheek is hard to read in text from those you don't know. And it's really culturally dependant on it being funny.

Don't take it personally. And saying things in like "I don't want to draw more gunfire" ... Dude, put a cup on ;) it won't stop people from voicing their opinions on the subjects you talk about anymore than it would stop you from responding to their posts.

It's a discussion forum. People are going to tell you exactly what they think. If you don't like certain posters, block them. You won't see their posts. I have a couple people blocked.

That's just an aside about posting in large, community based forums. Some of us "know each other" for 15 years.

I personally miss the big meaty topics with lots of argumentation and critical thinking. And if you used some faulty thinking, you got called out on it. If you couldn't say "oh, right. Shit. Ok. I see your point" then you looked like a complete twat. That, at least, still happens here. People speak out and people take things on the chin.

Anyway, back to the thread. Sorry for the derail.

Read: "I had no idea so many people on one website wouldn't put up with my chest-thumping, antiquated, bullshit ideas about how femmes should behave."

Hmmmm I kinda wondered by what was meant by the PC police but I got my question answered!

Personally why does it matter it it's butch/butch, you can't help who you fall in love with or date, etc. Love is love.

Chat has me thinking about this again!

So I am bumping the thread, lets talk!

I've been attracted to butches as well as femmes and in two LTRs with other butches

I think it totally can work IF both are comfortable with themselves. Unfortunately, in the last there seemed to be a discomfort in not having someone to "validate" their butchness. I was definitely the softer of the two of us, and I came to see they were ashamed of me. Hid me from friends and family, yelled at and punished me if I knew or did anything better than them in the "masculine" spectrum. Desired a certain bedroom dynamic that they then felt guilty for because it wasn't consistent with how they thought they should be.

I learned to hide. I would rejoice for time at home alone- I like to refurbish old hand tools and would throw a big old party for myself when they left.... then rush to hid everything in the back of the shed when they returned.

We always wanted to be able to enjoying the interests we shared.... hunting, fishing, driving off-road, camping...but the sense of competition killed it all.


Guess what I'm saying, is I get the attraction, but I know there can be some complicated dynamic. Put two healthy and secure butches together... oh the fun that be had lol

I still stand by my original statement, I may have to go back and re read it. I am attracted to whoever I am attracted to, femme,butch,mtf, ftm. I refuse to discriminate but to each their own on things.

Yikes, there is a lot of mud slinging going on here.

Look, a good portion of the human population are shitbags. Femme shitbags, butch shitbags, trans shitbags, cis shits bags, straight shitbags.... and it isn't your fault I feel you run into one. It IS your fault is your start generalizing from the few bad ones to the whole group.

And if it's happening consistently... I really question whose fault it is. If you don't want to be a doormat, DONT BE A DOORMAT. No, I'm serious, it actually is that simple. Plus I hate to say it, but a lot of people get off on being the victim. They seek out a certain position in life just to complain about it.

No mud slinging at all, just opinions lol

I see the doormat, victim all the time from folks.

Years ago, while I was earning my Bachelor's of Science degrees, I became good friends with a butch lesbian, who had just moved to Ashland from Las Vegas, where she spent many years as a sex worker. We're still very close friends to this day. We sometimes attended the same core classes, and we gravitated toward being study partners because in lots of our classes, She and I were known to take on really hard dialogues in group discussions, bantering back and forth, etc.

Anyhow, She eventually found herself in a relationship with another butch lesbian, and they were so incredibly right for each other. Cutest couple anyone ever did see.

Her partner died a couple years ago (though), but we still keep in touch. And I am glad for that because She was my best butch friend, ever. Anyhooo, all this to say that it shouldn't matter who a person is in an relationship with or how either individual identifies.

What matters, I think, especially in my best butch friends' case, was that both of them enjoyed each other immensely and it didn't matter to either one of them that they sort of shared an similar identity in being Butch. And any of us who knew each other were happy for them because it's kind of uncommonly rare when you find yourself well suited with the person you fall in love with and in an committed relationship with each other.

I thought they were absolutely adorable....and I counted myself very lucky to have been an chosen close friend.

I've been in both dynamics. I used to think I preferred butches only... it took a while for femmes to turn my head. Usually, I am the "softer" of the two. I think other butches are amazing and unique. If they weren't butch they were usually gender queer. I think I was really attracted to the queer aesthetic.

Femmes... it's so strange because I'm not really one who is that attracted to conventional beauty. So while I do see their attractiveness it doesn't really impact me the same. But recently I've gone crazy for them, and I'll tell you why. They really are like goddesses... damn if it isn't hot to watch them crush the world beneath their feet. The bitchier the better (using that in the best sense possible)... I love seeing a strong woman own some ignorant asshole. Their presence and strength is inspiring. I feel like I relax for once, because they got this shit.

But they make me hella nervous. Another butch I can just be frank. I'm all shy and twitchy around femmes