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Corkey 10-06-2011 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 432822)
One of the key factors all along the way of internal revenue reform in the US is just how big and active the tax attorney and certified public accountant lobbys are! This is big business in the US. From H & R Block to online tax prep services. This industry has made a lot of money on how complex just filing income tax can be for even people that are by no means wealthy, and want to reduce their tax liability by utilizing breaks that they are entitled too. Things like deductions for educators or mortgage interest, having a home office, etc.

These folks do not want a simplified tax code- don't want "just folks" to be able to file a simple return with their check if they owe. This is a billion dollar business in the US. Mention a flat tax toan accountant and hear them stutter!!

I've always done my own taxes, except for one year when the company I worked for moved and took us with it and I had to sell my home and the bonus money for moving, and the estate monies from my parents living trust. It was a mess and I am certainly not qualified to figure all that out. I never use H&R and never will.

atomiczombie 10-06-2011 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 432820)
Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.



What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

CherylNYC 10-06-2011 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 432820)
Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.


I can only speak from personal experience about the protest I attended yesterday, (Wednesday),evening. The organizers were a groupcalled United, and the majority of them were people of colour. They were very recognisable in their red t-shirts, and they did an excellent job keeping the crowd safe. Perhaps the news media chooses to focus on the white protestors, (I wouldn't know because I don't have a TV), but the mix of demonstrators that I saw seemed to be a good reflection of the diversity of our NYC population.

JAGG 10-06-2011 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoNotHer (Post 432768)
I don't disagree with the end of unfair tax breaks, Jagg, or lopsided tax structures that allow for a greater cut of Warren Buffet's secretary's salary to be taken out than his own.

But how you intend to solve the myriad of other issues at stake and at play here? What about the folks who have underwater mortgages? What about those who lost home and property to a medical bankruptcy? What about those who got sold a bill of goods by Enron and the like and invested in a garbage 401K? What about the folks who lost their small stores and businesses when Walmart and company came to town? What about the steel towns like the ones I live and have lived in that watched a thriving main street become a ghost town?

How exactly does an entity like a corporation, that is not only set up to serve itself first and foremost but is actually mandated by law to be responsible first to its owners/stockholders, ever get to decide what's best for all? And now that corporations do in fact run our democracy, how do we effectively reverse that?

You really want my opinion on fixing all those things? I don't have answers for all these things, but I can give you my opinion. That would take me a week, hahahah I'll tell you what I think about some and adress other ones later.
I don't know what you mean by an underwater mortgage. Do you mean people who took out a loan with a bank for an adjustible interest rate instead of a fixed rate ? Or someone who took out a loan they knew they couldn't afford but because the bank agreed to give them the loan they took it, and now can't make the payments? Tell me what you mean by underwater mortgages and then I can give you my opinion. As far as medical bancruptcy, it of course could happen to anyone. Just like any disaster in life, you don't expect it, or want it but you still need to take precautions. There are many many insurance companies you can buy policies from for a very small monthly fee ,some as low as 20 dolars a month, to protect you in case you become ill and unable too work . It pays your mortgage medical bills and even pays to retrain you in a new field if your injuries or illness prevent you from returning to your job. Some will pay up to a million dollars of medical bills etc, depends on your policy. So knowing it could happen to anyone at anytime, I think it's important you take measures to insure you're prepared. It's like not having renters insurance. It's less than 10 dollars a month but if you don't have it and a tornado wipes everything out, you'll have nothing. Do you think someone who wasn't willing to protect themselves should now be taken care of by tax payers? I don't. I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for them , or that it's not an awful situation to be in, I'm saying you can protect yourself if you don't want that to happen. If you don't protect yourself, then I guess you'll have to make do best you can. That is the responsiblity of the individual.
Enron is a messed up deal. All the people and companies that lost everything, the elderly, who can't work anymore, it's sad. Again could happen to anyone, those people had no idea their investments were shams some even did a lot research on the company before they invested, and it all seemed valid , how do we compensate victims of a crime? I supppose all that can be done is sell the assets and distribute them to the victims. Hold the people accountable for their crimes including the Gov. agencies who's job was to insure these things don't happen, like SEC. Then impliment rules and safeguards so that it doesn't happen again. It's all you can do. It's not a perfect plan , and those people will never get all their money back or even a fraction, by no fault of their own. It's sad it sucks, it's not fair. No easy fix for that one.
Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart? There are plenty of mom and pop shops still open. Mcdonalds , Burgerking, Wendy's , Steak and Shake, they haven't put any small mom and pop burger places out of business. People will pay extra for a better product, they will also pay more for a unique service or product, but they won't pay more for the same product or a like product. If a company is not offering something better or different than their rivals , except higher prices, that's bad business practices, no company can be profitable conducting business like that, why should poor busniess practices and an unwillingness to change anything make a mom and pop store anymore special than say, Builders Square, or Ultimate electronics . That's business, that's how it works and how it doesn't work. Blame it on walmart, blame it on the internet, target, kmart, but the fact is had they offered something better,something more, something different, something unique, they would still be in business. Ok That's it for tonight.

Glenn 10-06-2011 08:01 PM

I don't disagree with the fact that everyone needs to be held accountable for their own choices in life, even if we were all bombarded through corporate media with easy credit, real estate, cars, plasma Tv's, Bush encouraging us to spend more after 911, etc. What goes up comes down, and all of a sudden none of it was our fault? If my Mom and Pop store fails, I will take full blame. I won't blame the government. If I lived beyond my means, I've got whats coming to me. I still believe in Capitalism. It's flawed but can be fixed. But when the hammer drops, the poor feel it worse. The middle and working class have learned also by losing their homes and jobs. I agree with Obama to tax the billionairs. It was the ones at the top that shifted the blame outside of themselves, and refused to take responsibility. Maybe if there were more prison sentences and less fines for them it would've been different. Everyone, rich, poor, middle class needs to be held accountable for their choices. And speaking of Religion, most world religions do not condon usury. And speaking of morals, what is moral about charging someone $400 for 30 lifesaving pills, when I could look up the active ingredient and order a fifty gallon drum of it for ten dollars. This is how the billionairs are raping the poor and middle-class. We have been slaves to the billionairs of the world, and the best slaves, are the ones who don't know they are slaves.

The_Lady_Snow 10-06-2011 08:02 PM

A guess cause I'm no analyst
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie (Post 432870)
What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?



This is "my" personal opinion as to why, if large groups of Latinos and Black gathered in large numbers to "protest" I feel it would be seen differently.. I also believe that this information is not being passed to people who do not have access like we do and don't know that these kinds of gatherings are going on, add economic status and you can count a lot of peoples voices. My hopes this spreads so all towns not just big citties and all peoples are being educated on the chance to use their voices too.

MsMerrick 10-06-2011 08:33 PM

Here's photos from last Sunday ( October 2 ) down at Occupy Wall Street

My Facebook Public Photos
I was there at the March ( and I love the aerial view..! ) but my back hurt too much , so I didn't do the whole march. There was an incredible range of diversity there, and many Unions! All of which was very inspiring....

Here's a much smaller album of shots from the beginning of the March on Wednesday evening.
more of my FB albums

JAGG 10-06-2011 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Tick (Post 432308)
You know when i read this crap about unemployment being the fault of the unemployed and I hear about people clapping and cheering at the possible death of an uninsured person or booing a gay soldier in Iraq I start to think it isn't just Wall Street we need to occupy. We need to occupy a moral high ground. Our nation's moral compass has lost the ability to find true north. We need a national conscience. We need to take back our humanity.

Do you really think these people don't know what true north is ? Do you really think they don't know what is right and wrong. Of course they do. Of course they know you shouldn't do something to someone, you wouldn't want done to you. People with character and standards, and morals and ethics don't need a compass, they will do the right thing because that's who they are. They choose to do the right thing , not because of fear tactics or consequences, they do it because it's right. People who lack character, have no morals, no conscience,just don't care. They know what the right thing to do is, but unless it serves them in some way to do the right thing ,or it's easier than doing the wrong thing,they will choose to do what benefits them. They know it's wrong before they even do it, they don't care. No moral compass can fix that. They are thoughtless, selfish, self-centered, and self-serving, they have no conscience. You can't give a conscience to the morally bancrupt. And no moral compass will help them choose to do the right thing. They don't care who they hurt, who they effect who they damage or what havoc they wreak.They are usually the first ones to point a finger and blame someone else or something else, they will never hold themselves accountable. If they held themselves accountable they wouldn't have done the wrong thing to begin with. All we can do is hold them accountable, and try to prevent them from being in a position to hurt alot of people, like voting them into office.

Cin 10-06-2011 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 432979)
Do you really think these people don't know what true north is ? Do you really think they don't know what is right and wrong. Of course they do. Of course they know you shouldn't do something to someone, you wouldn't want done to you. People with character and standards, and morals and ethics don't need a compass, they will do the right thing because that's who they are. They choose to do the right thing , not because of fear tactics or consequences, they do it because it's right. People who lack character, have no morals, no conscience,just don't care. They know what the right thing to do is, but unless it serves them in some way to do the right thing ,or it's easier than doing the wrong thing,they will choose to do what benefits them. They know it's wrong before they even do it, they don't care. No moral compass can fix that. They are thoughtless, selfish, self-centered, and self-serving, they have no conscience. You can't give a conscience to the morally bancrupt. And no moral compass will help them choose to do the right thing. They don't care who they hurt, who they effect who they damage or what havoc they wreak.They are usually the first ones to point a finger and blame someone else or something else, they will never hold themselves accountable. If they held themselves accountable they wouldn't have done the wrong thing to begin with. All we can do is hold them accountable, and try to prevent them from being in a position to hurt alot of people, like voting them into office.

Well you certainly might be right. I really have no idea what makes people do things like that. But I wasn’t talking about those people when I said we need to occupy the moral high ground. Or when I said that our country needed to adjust its moral compass. I meant religious right wing conservatives always lay claim to morality like it just rightfully belongs to them, like it is just naturally assumed they are morally superior to the left. They certainly infer as much often enough. However, I think if we look at their actions, the right has shown this country an example of a very bizarre kind of morality. They do not act in ways that reflect any ideas of morality I’ve ever imagined. If the religious right is made up of people who act in good and moral ways then the definition of good and moral they are using is not same definition I am using. It does not reflect any belief I hold about goodness and morality.

They are not the keepers of the morality for this country, as a matter of fact by their actions they have shown themselves to actually be the antithesis of what is morally right.

atomiczombie 10-06-2011 10:03 PM

This is a comprehensive list of links to locations in the United States and Canada with Occupy Wall Street solidarity events:


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...es?detail=hide

JAGG 10-06-2011 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Tick (Post 433013)
Well you certainly might be right. I really have no idea what makes people do things like that. But I wasn’t talking about those people when I said we need to occupy the moral high ground. Or when I said that our country needed to adjust its moral compass. I meant religious right wing conservatives always lay claim to morality like it just rightfully belongs to them, like it is just naturally assumed they are morally superior to the left. They certainly infer as much often enough. However, I think if we look at their actions, the right has shown this country an example of a very bizarre kind of morality. They do not act in ways that reflect any ideas of morality I’ve ever imagined. If the religious right is made up of people who act in good and moral ways then the definition of good and moral they are using is not same definition I am using. It does not reflect any belief I hold about goodness and morality.

They are not the keepers of the morality for this country, as a matter of fact by their actions they have shown themselves to actually be the antithesis of what is morally right.

I agree to that for sure. Hypocrites. Organized religon is man's way to control man. I'm leary of anyone too far right or too far left. They usually are very angry and have a hidden agenda. That agenda usually has nothing to do with the best interests of anyone but them. That has been my experience.

SoNotHer 10-06-2011 10:22 PM

[QUOTE=JAGG;432922] I don't know what you mean by an underwater mortgage. Do you mean people who took out a loan with a bank for an adjustible interest rate instead of a fixed rate ?"

From Wisegeek.com "An underwater mortgage leaves the owner with more debt on the property than the current market value."

You owe more on your home than it's worth, conscripted as you are to "mortgage" (as in the French word "mort," or death, or only after death are free).

You can find a similar definition or find in news stories daily. The last figure I read suggested that folks lost 30% and more of their home's value in the post "boom boom" days that took a sharp right off the cliff just prior to Bush's exit. Inasmuch as a home is most folks' greatest financial asset, this was somewhat painful for working family types but perhaps better news for predatory types.



"As far as medical bancruptcy, it of course could happen to anyone."

The Vegas odds are better for the un or under-insured.

"I think it's important you take measures to insure you're prepared."

So how does that work for folks who were directed to invest in an Enron 401K, or who were counseled to buy a home beyond their means, or whose children were sent multiple credit card offers while still in college or who had the great misfortune of getting inconveniently sick working a Walmart or any job that ensures that you work just up to the point where you are not entitled to health insurance?

"I'm saying you can protect yourself if you don't want that to happen. If you don't protect yourself, then I guess you'll have to make do best you can. That is the responsiblity of the individual."

So really whatever happens, happens and let the free market rule? It's all good, right?

It's funny. We hold children to much different standards than this. If we see a child hitting another child, we intervene. If we see a child take another child's cookie, we stop it and make the child give it back. If we hear a child bullying another child or talking to other children about picking on and setting up another child, we address it and ensure that no child feels singled out or bullied or inferior. We want our children to understand, embody and act out of a sense of goodness and fairness and equality.

And then we become adults and that changes. So what exactly does that say about us, and what does that model for our children?


" Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose."

And that would be the only measure of cost and value? The comparative retail prices? Beyond the price you see and make a determination on, there are many other costs and prices to consider. And the statistics clearly and consistently show that the Mom & Pop stores not only give back more to their communities in terms of charity, real jobs and taxes, they also happen to take less from their community than a Walmart does in, for instance, in emergency services response and patrol (lotta stuff to watch and prosecute for the shoplifting of) or water contamination and clean up in the river that sits just, unfortunately enough, behind a Super Walmart.

And then of course there's what Walmart allows the community and taxpayer to do, namely take on those medical costs and bankruptcies. Over two thirds of the WM's employees don't participate in the company's healthcare plan. Wonder why. I'm sure it's because they're so abundantly covered somewhere else.

So it's interesting that while you call for more exports and fewer imports, a better trade balance and a stronger American-made economy, you find the justification to shop a store known for selling "Cheap Chinese Crap" because it appears to cost less.

And sadly, that's what everyone's done, which is why the dollar stagnates, China buys our debt (and ours and Canada's prime agriculture, by the way), and the middle class does an amazing disappearing act. "If we're looking for someone to blame, we only have to look into the mirror."

So here we are, many of us, listening to euphemisms like "downsizing" or "food insecurity" or "eliminating redundancies" thrown around, terrified of communism, ignorant of socialism, and falling into the ever widening jaws of carnivorous capitalism and wondering exactly when we hit some kind of economic and social oblivion from which there is no turning back.

AtLast 10-06-2011 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie (Post 432870)
What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

This ineresting as I have read a couple of blubs to the contrary. In SF, those that have gathered have been represented by POC quite clearly. Maybe because CA is a border state to Mexico? Or, is it just a SF thing?

The article Snow posted certainly points to how the mortgage lending practices and ensuing foreclosure rates hit POC in much higher numbers than whites.

It also can be atributed to the fact that historically, social movements tend to begin among white, middle class people. In the past this has been due to a very simple factor- they could have more "leisure" time. Although, since the recession has crossed economic and racial lines and is continuing to do so, my guess is that this social movement will keep climbing in numbers of POC and run across class status in ways we may have never seen before.

I wonder if one of the main reasons there are less Latinos involved in public demomstrations is also in play. Fear of harrassment about legal status. I was thinking earlier today after looking at the site that has the schedule of these demonstrations all over the US about cities in AZ and other states that have passed legislation about police being able to just demand documents from people. How the hell will Latinos, many of whom have had foreclosures, feel about participating?

It may very well be that since more and more white, middle-class people are feeling the effects of long term unemployment in much higher numbers and also would be among higher percentages of people that have bank accounts and credit cards as well as mortgages, etc. People that suffer with chronic unemployment and have been dealing with the poverty level in their lives don't use banks (usually can't even get an account due to poor credit scores) or have credit cards. If they do, they are of the type that the person fills themselves and is really not an extension of credit (the pre-paid cards).

My hope is that this will be a movement in which all that are angry with how people are being taken advantaged of by big banks and public corporations can join together and not get diverted by "how many of what color is out here today." That's another thing, this is a revolving movement in which people demonstrate on dats they can and not on others. Demonstartors are revolving in and out as they can with their own obligations. So, there are different people every day of the demonstrations.

I'm just throwing out some possibilities here- and I am going to go look for the links of articles that state that there is a good turn-out in various areas of POC.

Martina 10-06-2011 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 433038)

It also can be atributed to the fact that historically, social movements tend to begin among white, middle class people.

That is simply not true. The Civil Rights Movement was not started by white middle class people. The Labor Movement was not. The LGBT rights movement was not. The Disability Rights movement was not. Anti-Apartheid was not. Indiginous Peoples Movements were not. And on and on.

Corkey 10-06-2011 10:54 PM

On the news, ABC and MSNBC when they were showing the protesters I saw a mix of races, many many young and many many women. Sorry not into tallying the numbers. I know our city has a protest to be staged, no one has intimated it's only for white people. So far it is mostly academics doing the talking however. Not many poor people have access to computers outside of work or school, so when it is staged the poor may just well join.

AtLast 10-06-2011 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 433045)
That is simply not true. The Civil Rights Movement was not started by white middle class people. The Labor Movement was not. The LGBT rights movement was not. The Disability Rights movement was not. Anti-Apartheid was not. Indiginous Peoples Movements were not. And on and on.

And you are very misinformed and ignorant of the facts! I have taught social problems and movements for many years. Look up middle-class leisure time variables and social movements in the united states and most certainly the Second Wave of feminism. You are very much out of your league here.

Poor and working poor people are usually struggling to keep food on the table, work more than one job and don't have the all of the "free" time that the middle class has had.

EnderD_503 10-07-2011 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 433054)
And you are very misinformed and ignorant of the facts! I have taught social problems and movements for many years. Look up middle-class leisure time variables and social movements in the united states and most certainly the Second Wave of feminism. You are very much out of your league here.

Poor and working poor people are usually struggling to keep food on the table, work more than one job and don't have the all of the "free" time that the middle class has had.

Eh. It depends on the movement. I agree that a great deal of rights movements were given breath by middle class people, but it wasn't the case in every movement of the early modern/modern era. Martina does have a point about certain movements she's mentioned: the birth of the Gay Rights movement, if we trace it from Stone Wall, stemmed from some of the most marginalized people of contemporary society (trans sex workers, drag queens, working or impoverished gay men) becoming fed up with police raids and mistreatment. Of course, the academics that gave a louder voice to the movement (though did not initiate it), were certainly indispensable.

Anti-Apartheid was a mixed bag, and without black South Africans and white South Africans coming together there would not have been as great a success. Same can be said for the Civil Rights movement in the US.

There are quite a few rights movements and revolutions out there that had little to do with white middle class people. At the same time, many rights movements also required the involvement of white middle class academics in particular (the feminist movement as you mentioned. Without middle class white women in particular, there would be no feminist movement, either first or second wave), in order to gain widespread success.

The poor not having leisure time to think of acting on their own oppression is not as true in the 20th century as it was in the 19th and 18th centuries (and before, of course). Especially in groups that were frequently the targets of regular state violence and brutality.

I'm not sure it's a generalisation that can be applied to all movements, is what I'm trying to say.

dykeumentary 10-07-2011 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 433054)
And you are very misinformed and ignorant of the facts! I have taught social problems and movements for many years. Look up middle-class leisure time variables and social movements in the united states and most certainly the Second Wave of feminism. You are very much out of your league here.

Poor and working poor people are usually struggling to keep food on the table, work more than one job and don't have the all of the "free" time that the middle class has had.

Whoa.
"Very misinformed," "ignorant," and "out of your league"?
Is this CNN or a social website?

An example that comes to mind right off the bat is the struggle of Indigenous Peoples in North America. I'm a working person, so probably someone who teaches knows more than I do, but I'm pretty sure that First Nation people have been fighting for their continued existence since they first had contact with European people. I'm guessing that makes them the longest-fighting resistance here, even without the help of the white middle class. This thread does have the word "Occupy" in it's title.

Seems like if the white middle class is writing the script, they might be giving themselves a starrng role, and set the definitions? My view of history leads me to think the white middle class is best at looking after it's own interests. Most of the time that's involved complacency. I think disenfranchised people have shown a lot of energy and inventiveness working on their own behalf. I think that's one of the reasons the NYPD has to use terrorism to discourage resistance.

AtLast 10-07-2011 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dykeumentary (Post 433115)
Whoa.
"Very misinformed," "ignorant," and "out of your league"?
Is this CNN or a social website?

An example that comes to mind right off the bat is the struggle of Indigenous Peoples in North America. I'm a working person, so probably someone who teaches knows more than I do, but I'm pretty sure that First Nation people have been fighting for their continued existence since they first had contact with European people. I'm guessing that makes them the longest-fighting resistance here, even without the help of the white middle class. This thread does have the word "Occupy" in it's title.

Seems like if the white middle class is writing the script, they might be giving themselves a starrng role, and set the definitions? My view of history leads me to think the white middle class is best at looking after it's own interests. Most of the time that's involved complacency. I think disenfranchised people have shown a lot of energy and inventiveness working on their own behalf. I think that's one of the reasons the NYPD has to use terrorism to discourage resistance.

Go and research social movement beginnings in the US other than early union movements. This is about the fact that so many social movements having to deal with the absence of POC and working-class and the poor being represented. I am actually talking about the fact that middle-class people have historically been able to "take the time" to get organized because of what the poor and working class deal with in terms of survival.

Later, this fact was most certainly brought to the forefront as so many of the variable, let's say for the Women's Movements did not address issues of WOC or poor women. Of course, POC and working poor began to say- "Hey, this does not comsider what is important to me." Then, made their issues known. There are many, many early and later strong social movement leaders from other classes and races. Many splits were made due to these kinds of issues and the lack of knowledge of white, middle class activists in terms of POC.

I am coming from a sociological perspective of the demographics of social movements as they are documented. It is about the mechanics of social movements.

In the 60's it was college students, mainly white that were faced with the draft during the Vietnam War that were at the center of that movement to stop that war. At that time, there were far, far, far fewer POC in college at all as well as in good paying jobs with good benefits and the means to get out there.

And again, as a sociological paradigm, it is very difficult for people that cannot just up and run out with a poster at their leisure to a demonstration, Consequently, those that could, did.

I brought this up in response to posts about the lack of POC at many of the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations- which isn't entirely true. However, given the severity of unemployment today, especially with POC, things like transportation, child care, and just lack of funds would have a big impact and it is higher among POC. For example, in Richmond, a city near me, the rate of unemployment for Latinos and African Americans is more than double than for whites. Most have been unemployed long term which really causes a decline in resources as simple as having money to take a bus, let alone have a car.

This is not about middle-class whites are the activists and POC have not taken their rightful place in social movement organization and effectiveness. That is absolutely not what I was saying at all.

Dominique 10-07-2011 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey (Post 433047)
Not many poor people have access to computers outside of work or school, so when it is staged the poor may just well join.

Computers and the internet are free at all libraries, career link provides the same free services. Most YMCA's and YWCA's have compter labs and the use is free. Dress for Success, (a woman's back to work program) has a no charge computer lab.....computer access, to folks who can not afford it, is readily available, if one wants it. just saying.

MsMerrick 10-07-2011 05:24 AM

AtLast, I disagree with your general statement. If you wanted to reword it to s say that often a movement caught fire or got media recognition, when it was taken over by the white middle class..I "might" agree. But I remind you that "historical facts" are reported by the white middle class..Particularly going back to the 50's and for many years forward, whites were pretty much the only people recognized as being a story !

AtLast 10-07-2011 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMerrick (Post 433124)
AtLast, I disagree with your general statement. If you wanted to reword it to s say that often a movement caught fire or got media recognition, when it was taken over by the white middle class..I "might" agree. But I remind you that "historical facts" are reported by the white middle class..Particularly going back to the 50's and for many years forward, whites were pretty much the only people recognized as being a story !

I can live this. Although, one has to study the key organizer's biographical information. Middle-class does not only contain white people would be another point I would like to make. Funny how we take don't recognize POC that are middle or also upper-middle-class.

But, I certainly see your point about what was/is considered a "news story." I am thinking about things like the Natalee Holloway case, or the Lacy Peterson case. There was months and months of in depth media coverage on both of these from the start- just when they were both "missing persons."

How many POC cases are covered like that? In fact, an African American woman's body was discovered at the very same area Lacy & Connor Peterson's was and it got little attention.

The_Lady_Snow 10-07-2011 07:10 AM

I don't know the numbers of how many Latinos are showing up at these protests I'm reading and listening to my Latino based sources be they media, radio, articles and they are encouraging us to make a stance and show up at these protests with caution. The caution comes from when a person who is not white gets arrested their process is a teeny tiny bit harder when it comes to making bail I myself know this from being arrested at peaceful protests and having been treated a lil rougher cause I'm Latina and gay, this weekend I hope that many many peoples that aren't white show up to Occupy Jacksonville I have a feeling it won't be so multicultural though.

SoNotHer 10-07-2011 07:18 AM

"In the less than three weeks since protesters first converged in lower Manhattan, similar demonstrations have already cropped up in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and other U.S. cities, and organizers in dozens of other countries – including Canada – say they will do the same. Here’s what you need to know about the movement."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2193829/

JAGG 10-07-2011 07:58 AM

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

MsMerrick 10-07-2011 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 433130)
I can live this. Although, one has to study the key organizer's biographical information. Middle-class does not only contain white people would be another point I would like to make. Funny how we take don't recognize POC that are middle or also upper-middle-class.

.

Perhaps you do not, but I certainly do, and that would be why I specifically mentioned White.

SoNotHer 10-07-2011 09:14 AM

The 2011 Values Voter Summit
 
Ah, as if I needed confirmation that the OWS movement was touching a nerve and on track:

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_999853.html

WASHINGTON -- Top House GOP leaders assured attendees at the 2011 Values Voter Summit Friday morning that despite all the attention on fixing the nation's economy, they remain committed to pushing the priorities of social conservatives, including defunding Planned Parenthood and defending the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in court.

Linus 10-07-2011 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoNotHer (Post 433258)
Ah, as if I needed confirmation that the OWS movement was touching a nerve and on track:

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_999853.html

WASHINGTON -- Top House GOP leaders assured attendees at the 2011 Values Voter Summit Friday morning that despite all the attention on fixing the nation's economy, they remain committed to pushing the priorities of social conservatives, including defunding Planned Parenthood and defending the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in court.

Eric Cantor is a maroon. The fact that the Republicans are continuing business as usual (that is, there is no economic problem and that it's all about the "moral fabric") is not surprising.

His comments here are more telling:

Quote:

"This administration's failed policies have resulted in an assault on many of our nation's bedrock principles," he said. "If you read the newspapers today, I, for one, am increasingly concerned about the growing mobs occupying Wall Street and the other cities across the country. And believe it or not, some in this town, have actually condoned the pitting of Americans against Americans. But you sent us here to fight for you and all Americans."

But when he spoke at the Values Voter Summit in 2009, Cantor expressed a very different sentiment toward another movement that was arguably "pitting Americans against Americans" -- the Tea Party.

At that time, Cantor praised those protesters as "fighting on the fighting lines of what we know is a battle for our democracy.”

"People are beginning to wake up and see a country they don’t really recognize," said Cantor.

Dude 10-07-2011 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 433218)
The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

Greyson 10-07-2011 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie (Post 432870)
What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

Like Snowy (and ty for responding to this question) what I am posting is only my opinion. No science, statistical anything to back it up. Purely my oberservation and judgment.

It is a little bit different for POC and especailly for those without a certain level of education and/or money, resources when gathering in large numbers. First, if you must be somewhere to earn a living and it is going to make the difference as to whether you can put a roof over your family and food on the table, guess which one you choose? You go to work, not the march.

Second, if you are a member of a group of people that historically have been treated unfailry by our figures of authority and power; One tends to learn how to avoid being in situations that might render you "guilty until proven innocent" or harrassed within the frame of what is legal, maybe, or just humiliating. Many POC have had a few generations to learn the skills of how to survive in a hostile environment. These lessons are not easily unlearned. The trust is not there.

Some people may be undocumented and if arrested fear they will be deported. Others may have a previous criminal record that is recent or decades old. It is possible they cannot afford to have another arrest on their record. Even if the arrest is only civil disobedience.



__________________________________________________ ______________________________

African Americans and Hispanics suffer disastrously high unemployment rates in metro areas
Two new EPI briefing papers by Algernon Austin, director of EPI’s program in race and ethnicity detail the catastrophic effect the nation’s jobs crisis has had on African American and Hispanic communities across the nation. In High black unemployment widespread across nation’s metropolitan areas, Austin compares the post-recession unemployment rates of 2010 to those before and at the end of the recession (2007 and 2009) in 31 metro areas.
http://www.epi.org/publication/high-...politan-areas/
At 24.7 percent, Detroit led the nation in black unemployment in 2010. Likewise, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, and Minneapolis all had black unemployment rates over 20 percent. Sun Belt cities were once a refuge for African Americans seeking employment before the recession, but the metropolitan areas of Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, and Las Vegas all had unemployment rates above the national black average and were among the highest rates of all the metro areas examined.
The Huffington Post used the paper’s findings to create this interactive slideshow depicting the 10 cities where black unemployment is rising fastest.
Hispanic unemployment rates in metropolitan areas around the country had similarly discouraging findings. http://www.epi.org/publication/hispa...ent-northeast/ Of the 38 places studied, 18 saw an increase in Hispanic unemployment of over one percentage point since 2009. Providence, Rhode Island had the highest unemployment for Hispanics with a rate of 25.2 percent, followed by Hartford, Connecticut at 23.5 percent.
This week’s Economic Snapshot further illustrates the high rates of Hispanic unemployment across the nation.
The metropolitan areas with the highest rates of Hispanic unemployment were much higher than the national Hispanic average of 12.5 percent and even rival the peak national unemployment rate during the Great Depression.
“Without a strong federal jobs program, the pain of very high unemployment is likely to be long-lasting for most of America’s metropolitan blacks and Hispanics,” said Austin.

Linus 10-07-2011 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 433218)
The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg, I know this won't change your view I do feel that I need/want to speak up a dissenting opinion to what you say (as a former fiscal conservative type).

While it certainly is up to each person to ensure they have a safety net, the challenge is what if their safety net is completely gone because the job they had went *poof*, they've used all their savings and nothing is left? What if they went to school to get a decent job, can't find one now that the market is tanked and have an obscene amount of student loans where they are expected to pay $500 a month from the start? Where does this person turn? To me this isn't about bad choices (not any more). It's about events beyond our own control. I've lost jobs and been out of work for a few months but I cannot imagine being out of work for 2+ years. I don't understand how that's an individuals fault.

I would also like to add that we don't have the close-knit communities like we used to. There has been a cultural shift to remote communities and given the discussion currently on this site about "Internet Duplicity" it's hard to be able to ask or give support when faced with challenges like that. So where does the individual turn to at this point? Middle class has been eroded for years (this has been an ongoing discussion in Canada for years -- I think I remember first seeing this in the mid-90s in the Toronto Star or on the CBC).

On the flip side, banks and large industry (most notably the American car industry) claimed that they needed the money to help individuals stay afloat. They got the money and... nothing. Small business, who cannot stay afloat against the likes of Walmart et al., are going under and cannot get loans in a poor market. People looking for work have a market that is impossible to get into. And often, if they manage to get jobs it's at minimum wage (if they are lucky). Individuals, who were willing to work out new payment plans, were ignored by banks. I know of one woman who worked 2 full time jobs for her restructured mortgage program. The bank kept telling her different amounts for her restructured program and every time she paid she was out by x amount (even after asking 3 times for verification as to the amount and when it was due!). They foreclosed on her recently. How is this her fault? Who does she turn to?

I know that this isn't always because of someone not willing to do the work or not having a safety net. I know this because K spent nearly 2 years trying to find work after obtaining a well-regarded Masters degree in a field that is in need of people: social work. She sent out thousands of resumes over the course of that time and got two call backs. Most of the time people didn't even say "We got your resume and will keep it on file" or some other form of acknowledgement. We're very lucky right now: I make a very decent salary and she, during that 2 years, worked for her dad. She managed to get a temporary job with the VA but that has a lot of uncertainty as it could end at any time.

Now, if I lost my job would we survive? Probably not. My savings is enough to pay off everything I owe but losing my job would mean more than that. I'd have to leave the country and probably live with relatives. For me, this whole fight is personal. While I can't be at the rallies I would love to because the reality is... we are the 99%.

I don't think this is a question of living beyond one's means but rather an extended Depression -- and I think it's time we said that it is a Depression. This isn't an extended Recession. This is a fundamental change in the way that the markets work. At one time, these kinds of events caused individuals to rethink and get creative (the old adage of "necessity is the mother of invention") but this feels very different. In a society where mass consumerism has reached it's peak and saturation, and where box stores and the likes of Amazon rule, I wonder if small business and recreation of industries can still exist.

So while some may have mismanaged or misplanned or spent beyond their means, given the size of what is being faced here in the US I don't think that it's true of the majority.

Julie 10-07-2011 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 433218)
The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.

Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg -- Seriously?

You are equating investing in a financial market over a person who is not prepared for an accident or illness?

Imagine this. I had amazing health insurance. This covered all of my treatments and my surgeries, of which I worked really hard through the years to have this great job which gave me great health insurance. 5 years later, I am without a job and my cancer returns. I no longer have insurance and I am no longer employed, yet -- I thought I had prepared for my future, but the fucking economy dropped and I lost everything, including my job. There are no jobs available to me - because the unemployment rate is HIGH! Not to mention, I cannot afford my mortgage payment anymore and did I mention, the credit card companies raised my interest from 10% to 29% and they got away with it? Oh, I did have a savings, but I had to drain it in order to save my life for the moment - Did not save my home though! And my kids, my babies are hungry.

How can you possibly equate a risky financial decision - investments always are - with people who get ill or lose their jobs? And let us not forget about where people grow up and what is available to those people. There is no such thing as fair education in this fucking country of ours. Or fair jobs. While our country likes to say they treat all people equal - this is just bullshit. I stand a better fucking chance at getting a job over a person of color, even if they are better qualified than I am.

What about the 10's of thousands of homeless vets? Yes, homeless men and women who gave their lives and souls to this country, are left to rot and are dying of hunger. Is this their fault?

Car insurance? There is no bank who will loan you a car without insurance. You cannot register a car (paid for or not) without insurance. This is RARE when this happens.

How can you say this? Where is your empathy?

Julie

Write14u 10-07-2011 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 432922)
Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart?

Gotta disagree with you on this one JAGG. It wasn't a matter of not wanting to lower prices for mom and pop businesses.
When Wal-Mart exploded in the 80s and ---yes, put mom and pop places out of business --- it did it because it had the power of money. I know this first hand and witnessed it with my father's television shop. When he ordered a Magnavox, etc., TV for his store, he couldn't even get the same rate as Wal-Mart was SELLING TVs for. Because Wal-Mart bought in such bulk from the manufacturers, it was able to sell TVs for lower than my dad, as a dealer, could buy them. You can say it's not Wal-Mart's fault that it had the money to buy so much at such a low price, and that would be accurate. However, it's not accurate to blame it on smaller businesses who were unable to match those prices without taking steep losses.
And yes, Wal-Mart knocked my dad out of business. He adapted and found other things to sell/do. But in no way, shape or fashion, did he have the money required to compete with Wal-Mart. The only small mom and pop stores remaining open are niche shops.

Write14u 10-07-2011 10:12 AM

And JAGG, as for being prepared: There are people who can barely afford to pay for food. There's not even $10 per month to squeeze out of the budget for any type of insurance, whether it's renters insurance or life insurance, etc.
Julie said it well. There's nothing you can do when you lose your job and you're doing everything you can to find another and something happens to you, such as a medical issue. That's not lack of preparation.

Julie 10-07-2011 10:24 AM

True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.

And SweetCali - We lost her as well. We lost her, because this country of ours does not give a shit about people without health insurance. She was treated like a second class citizen and she did not have to die. She should not have died. I believe our country is also responsible for her death.

And what about all of the other people who die on a daily basis, because they do not get the health care needed or are not treated with the same care as someone with money? PLEASE!

We in this country are creating our own fucking genocide with the poor.
What part of this is okay?

I am just so heartbroken by the ignorance of some people. When you are so ignorant and callous - you are creating a great hurt!

The_Lady_Snow 10-07-2011 10:27 AM

RIP Roger you were an amazing human being.

Dominique 10-07-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 433218)
The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Wow! I hope you never become sick, seriously sick. I'm afraid you are going to have an eye opener. Karma is a crazy thing.

Moving along thru this crazy post of yours. What tax are we paying that reimburses an under or uninsured auto owner for vehical theft? I live in the same state you are from, one of the MOST HEAVILY TAXED STATES in America, and I am not aware of this tax? Are you referring to uninsured motorist protection coverage? Isn't that for collision on your OWN
vehical?:seeingstars:

Have you seen the unemployment lines for people waiting to apply for 100 available positions? Maybe you live underneath a rock (I sometimes think I do) However, I am very aware of what this Occupy Wall Street movement is all about. You sound like a Tea Party person.

WoW. Just Wow.

JustJo 10-07-2011 10:35 AM

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so please excuse me if I miss a point or something....but....I have to say that I think there is a middle ground when it comes to personal responsibility.

I am all for helping people out who are hit by a tornado, lose their job, get driven out of business by the WalMarts of the world, etc.

Yes, shit happens...and no one can be prepared for everything. There should be a safety net, and it should be adequate so that people can live with dignity.

However....I see a whole lot of people who fail to take personal responsibility when they can and then want everyone else to bail them out...and that frosts my cookies.

I work with a whole lot of people who make a good living....don't bother to save anything in their 401k because they'd rather spend it on a new car every year, and then whine that social security won't be enough to support them in a 20 year retirement. :blink: Really?

I live in an area (and bought a short sale house from a perfect example) where lots and lots of people went crazy pulling money out of their homes on home equity loans to buy toys....boats, RVs, fishing gear, 4 wheelers, electronic goodies....and then wanted the rest of us to bail them out when the bubble burst and they owed more on their homes than they could afford to pay each month, or more than the house was worth. :blink: Really?

I'm not talking about people who get sick, get shafted on their jobs, get preyed upon by predatory lenders....I'm talking about people who make piss poor choices, and then cry that they got a raw deal and want the government (i.e. your wallet and mine) to bail them out.

Like Jagg, that bothers me.
Yes, shit happens that people can't deal with...and they should be helped. But not everyone who's crying foul got dealt a bad hand either....they just got greedy, took a gamble, and lost.

JAGG 10-07-2011 11:05 AM

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

Linus 10-07-2011 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 433310)
How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?


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