Right?

And if I were being brutally honest, all too frequently the support we are given is reflective of how we "stand by our men."

Boots, I want you to know that I am really, really glad you're here and listening AND participating.

On my first reading of your post, I was quietly pleased. I identified with Fru.

On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

Maybe we could start by not generalizing to an entire community when speaking about individual experiences. I am suspicious about the existence of an actual lesbian community. Or, for that matter, a butch femme community or any other worldwide experience of community. Any lesbian who went out of her way to ostracize an individual, or who got a bunch of her friends to join in on the meanness is not someone who is in *my* lesbian community.

Have you seen the posts (mine included) that put in disclaimers and small print to utterly ensure that this is no one else's viewpoint but the poster's. When, in fact, that's all any one of us can speak to at any time, no matter how sweeping and all-inclusive our language gets.

On line, there are different levels of education, worldliness, writing and speaking abililties, intelligences, etc. No d'uh. We know this, but yet we often don't give each other a fucking break. I think when we're discussing different points of view, we just offer a little kindness and benefit of the doubt and that could go a long way toward avoiding pissing wars. Sarcasm and insults should be relegated to the fun and fluff threads. :)

My lesbian warrior with great hair identity is not threatened by anyone's babygirl identity, lesbian or not. Don't be afraid of me. I love you and I mean it.

I love you back and I love love love your post. Every. Single. Word.

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime. :batmoose:

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

SNIP...
apropos terminology. i really like that. thank you for adding it to the bin i keep my brain in.

there's been talk here of duality that reaches into me right now and has for a while. i dislike the greater vs. lesser paradigms laid on some relationships, hetero/homo/trans/poly/inter sexual and so on ad nauseum. it deprives any supposed "weaker" partner of strength and capability as well as leeching the possibility for sensitivity from the so-called "stronger".

i'm also fixated on the "house divided" mentality of part of our community. i don't remember the exact wording of the saying. something about a house divided against itself not being able to stand. is some of our disapproval of one another due to an ingrained sort of self-hatred provided by a larger hetero-centric community at large? do we try to look and act like the "enemy" (not a literal reference, please don't send mail) so that we can both participate in the superiority mindset as well as fly under the radar. you know the drill: well at least i'm not like those people. i'm normal. no one would even know if it weren't for __________.

there's a book called brazen femme: queering femininity by elizabeth ruth that came to mind when i was rereading the thread this morning. when speaking of a woman the author is calling the quantum femme. it's a long quote but it's a good one:

She's perpetually stuck in a time-warp between a neon bright high flashing eclipse and absolute invisibility. Can anyone see her?

She's here to remind the galaxy that it is possible to be more than one half of any duality, more than just nd extension, an opposite: male/female. Rational/emotional. Butch/femme. So, she's nobody's princess, baby doll, babe. Her ass is her own until she needs a good spanking. Even then, she's nobody's slut but the slut inside you.

Moving in waves - not steps - her posture is regal. Her shoulders are back, she wears the dress before the dress wears her. Or maybe not. Maybe she can't crawl out of bed some days, can't choose the proper costume. Quantum femme knows costumes and weapons are one in the same and she knows all too well the rolling pictures in some minds, of a buxom, tight-waisted milkmaid. Ready-made-to-order. You'd like to think she'll eat you for supper. Lick. Suck. Devour. Let you off the hook? In your dreams.

The truth is she can make you comfortable in your skin even when you shouldn't be, and she wears great pain. There's a reason you'll never see a quantum femme cry in public. Her acid rain tears would flood the planet, crate a burning wave, tsunami undertow that threatens to swallow everything...

So beware. Up close, microscopically, she might not be what you envision. She might shock with her unkempt reality...You can't label her neuroses, identify her predilections, or even predict what she would eat for breakfast. She's slippery, gliding through expectations like spilt mercury dancing down your leg, curdling and separating. She's been many people in many places but somehow always the same.

She's attracted to power because it's like looking in the mirror...Don't touch too softly or she won't notice, and don't wait for an invitation...You can't begin to imagine what sadomasochistic lifetimes she's consente to. Or, those she didn't. You can't know her by defining her parameters, testing her tolerance or crossing her boundaries. Quantum femme has a voracious appetite for the truth and the truth hurts most of all.

If you want to win her favor don't spread out across her mattress like you're waiting for a hot meal. Or preen publicly like a peacock then privately hide in her breasts, an ostrich burying your head in the sand. She's already somebody's mother, siser and wife. She's put in her volunteer hours and doated to charity. She doesn't want to demand that you make her come - she wants to dare you. Make her come so she can go away, leave herself with the pounding pounding of your hand, fist, anything inside her center. Let the vibrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrations on her clit stop time.

She's woman enough to give it up for you and astronomical enough to make each explosion feel new. She won't break or fall into pieces. She knows no singular force strong enough to reach her now...She doesn't crave picket fences, station wagons, or diamond rings. Her people are flawed beyond repair so she's had to learn to love and hate simultaneously. Don't be surprised by the company she keeps.

you've no idea how much i wish i'd said something this remarkable. (or how much i wish i felt the confidence of this quantum femme on at least a semi-weekly basis!)

while i was working the other day i saw a woman who epitomized these words and found myself wanting to follow her home and sit at her feet for the rest of my life, if only to understand what it was that she knew that i've never managed to comprehend completely.

so many lessons. so little room in the bin

I stand corrected, and rightfully so. I was inadvertently dismissive when I described her quality as a streak...it isn't that transient (to be a streak) it's a quality borne of her life experiences and her assertiveness and the vision she has of her future. So starts my lesson.

Addressing a disconnect between "bitch and angel" (Blushes words!) ...I wish she was here so that we could kick this can around...I wonder if /when she feels that? Though I feel I would be speaking out of turn to comment on her feelings.
I cant wait til we talk tonight ...now I want to dig into this with her!

But pondering my "feeling safe" thing. This feeling is new for me. I trust her, with my heart and I trust her with our future, one that we are building together...and from this trust comes a feeling of safety. Who she is (separate and independent from the "us" that we are creating) is where the trust started. Her values, her code, her strengths, her armor, her fierceness, her assertiveness, her charm, her manners, her emotions. She is not just one of these, but an ever shifting culmination of these qualities and more.

This thread has my head spinning...

I am engrossed in the different discussions going on here, and thrilled with the information and personal opinion that is being presented.

While I haven't seen this in your posts, TPT--maybe because you were already changing by the time we started interacting?--I have experienced it from others. I call it "gatekeeping" behavior. People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.

I like this. It's pretty much how I try to handle things as well; I will speak about my opinions, I will stand up for people who seem to need it, but I don't need to argue nor do I need to "defeat" anyone. Other people's opinions cannot change the truth of my life, of my being.... and I do not have the right to try to change the truth of their lives, no matter how wrong I think they might be. It was a hard path learning these lessons. Thank you for a chance to reflect on them again.

I don't think it's horrible and I don't think it's a whole nuther thread, either.... I think it speaks to deep lifelong conditioning as a female, which certainly impacts anyone as a Femme, especially as she tries to find her voice in adulthood. I had the same kind of conditioning from my mother... she didn't have to die for me to break at least partially free, but I DID have to invoke the Geographical Cure and move halfway across the country, yanno?

I was one of those newbies, but I do have to say that it was the SERIOUS threads which did me more damage than the joke threads, even though both played a role. I'm really glad that the serious "how to be a Femme" threads have all long since fallen by the wayside.

I. Love. Your. Dream. World.

Amazingly enough, mine looks just like it! :cheesy:

I have to go offline--a friend just called to say she's bringing over a piece of furniture she doesn't need anymore!! Wooohooo! Storage!--so I'll talk to y'all later.

Sorry if I mis-spoke or didn't perceive right. I caught "relegated" and "unseen" in perusing this fast. I'll sit back now. Thanks, June

I'm sorry, I had no idea that femmes were treated this way. It's very alien to me considering how I regard femmes. Thanks for responding.

I am using your post super duper Femme to write my own letter to the baby femme that is me. We hear about baby butches a lot. I am a baby femme at the ripe old age of 43! Anyway this is me writing to the new fresh femme me. Yes this is all about me. Hee hee.

Dear Baby Femme-

Why are you scared of femmes? Why do you feel like you are back in the sixth grade? Why are you intimidated by someone who identifies as a high femme? I think it is because you feel less than. I think it is coming from inside and not how anyone else identifies. Can you see that? Can you see that creating hierarchies is bad for you?

I know you feel like a big loser sometimes because you are new. I know you feel defined by others because your first and only partner is a transmasculine butch. It's ok for you to identify and call yourself whatever you like.

It's scary to be in a group of women. That has sometimes not gone so well for you in the past. I know it is easier to focus on the masculine beings in your midst.

I know you feel out of place in a group of femmes without the straight married mom mask you used to wear. It is just another aspect of coming out. Maybe life can be more now than just talking about kids, vacations, home renovations and other things that never interested you in the first place. I know you have seen how exciting it is to be around people who talk about ideas instead of things.

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Love You very very much my sweet baby femme.

Julie

TD, I'd like to know to whom you're directing this question and the tone with which you ask it.

I own Brazen Femme too.

This is my absolute, all-time favorite essay on femme. There was a time when I'd placed "Quantum Femme" as my identity in that space over there
<---
on another b/f website.

My fucking god.

Thank you for reminding me.

Thank you for using these exact words. Until I came across this thread, I had been composing a thread titled "Living Less Than" to broach this very real issue.

One of the biggest struggles I have had in adapting to living with/caring for my precious motherinlaw is her very entrenched view of men/males and women/females.

I love my motherinlaw. I treat her as I would want one of my sisterinlaw's to treat my mother. And yet, she is the bane of my existence at times.

She is ENAMORED with men. Period. Doesn't matter the character of the man - if he was born with a penis, its her job/duty/obligation as a less than woman to cater to his every need. Nothing pisses me off more than watching her dote over the uneducated redneck who we have hired to perform some type of manual labor around the house. She sat, for over two hours, while the plumber worked on our well pump. Not did she sit there and distract a man with prattle while he was being paid by the hour, she also made sure he had ice water. The selfadmitted illiterate handyguy down the street for whom she cooks a full blown, southern Sunday dinner. I won't even get started on her view of her son, the unmedicated bipolar, raging alcoholic, unemployed idiot. Nothing is EVER a man's fault - its always "one of them whores".

In all my nearly 40 years have I ever, ever seen this level of kowtowing to males. Never have I felt the need to cook a meal for someone I was paying by the hour. Doubt I ever will.

Imagine how difficult it is to watch this play out, day after day. Yes, I was raised by a mother with a similar background and is in the same generation. However, I was taught that I could achieve anything I desired. I could be, do, have just the same as my brothers. I would like to think that it was my father's way of forming me into what I now call being a "grown ass woman."

This might have been a slight derail and for that, I apologize. I do think that as we talk about femme issues that this is relevant and how we overcome it, bypass it or defeat it is important.

I am tired of being told or it being inferred that I am less than because of my gender. It is very contradictory in what I see in the mirror, what I present to the world and how I move through the world.

My femme is not always wrapped in a nice pretty package with that disarming southern drawl. Sometimes she is. Sometimes she is that abrasive, bitchy tall redhead in lovely, lovely stilettoes that can be hurled at one's head in a nanosecond.

Either way, one thing is consistent... she is me... my truth... my strength... every day.

Christie

This is for both Blush and Kosmo, and really anyone else that thought I might be asserting something negative(?) about a particular set of gay males.

Relational Aggression is a theory of social psychology. I believe that whenever it is not acceptable or ALLOWABLE for the human animal to attend to their aggressions openly as masculine people more often do (via threats, intimidation, posturing or acts of socially condoned violence) that she or he will attend to them in a relational way. So not only do we see these behaviors in the culture of certain gay males, but also in the business/organizational culture.

I simply didn't want to go into all of that as it isn't relative to the feminine people on the whole and how women and girls are primarily socialized.

Male supporter here, invited, swear!

I want to touch on what e is talking about here. I think it's important to recognize that regardless of the culture or subculture, femininity never fails to be the scapegoat. If you look at the gay male community (with which I'm more familiar than even this one), masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("girl is such a nelly queen"). If you look at the lesbian/butch-femme community, masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("she looks straight, she's not a real femme" or "she always takes up for trans men, she's "rolling over for the men.")

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male. We need to recognize that assuming femininity is weak, passive, and only exists to appease, stroke, reassure men/masculine is one way this community is promoting the male-centric atmosphere that inspired this thread. We have to strip femininity from its negative connotations to free femme. I wonder if this has to happen before we can dislocate masculinity and change notions of it.

Yes, and yes again.

Somebody remember to bring the underlined up every few pages whenever we begin to spiral downward.

I also wanted to say way back there, but have gotten distracted, that I personally and absofuckinglutely acknowledge and allow that femme is not just female, not just girl/woman.

I know some pretty kick-ass boy femmes and others and, for me, they only expand the possibilities of what-all this experience will allow.

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?