i don't want to speak for apretty, but i do think i get what she is saying. when using verbiage like "high" when referencing how one identifies as a person it automatically inserts a value or a hierarchical measure of worth. "high femme" vs "femme" has the potential to connote superiority amongst the femme community which can then lead to judgement based on a heteronormative standard of beauty and self-worth. it's all pretty darned normal, but in the queer community i think many of us are working to eliminate potentially destructive binaries...especially ones of a heteronormative nature. that being said, i think most of us are evolved enough to appreciate and honor a femme who id's as a "high femme" and allow her the opportunity to move around in and explore a space that represents who and what she is...just as long as she extends that same respect to others.

for me it's all about mutual respect. i don't feel threatened by a high femme because i am comfortable as i am...which is a crazy blend of everything!

I mean to say that there's been a lot of talk on the subject of femininity and what people call, 'high maintenance'.

There's the ways that our masculine-counterparts (generalizing, here) have said that they see femme/are attracted to femme when it's presented in heels/stockings/skirt: Which only fucks with everyone's head because that's not the reality of anyone, 24/7.

There's the ways that a femme we'll start a thread on 'high' femme and we'll get a laundry list of her heels/stockings/skirt--Or better, a photograph of a foot in a black heel, in a black stocking and a hem of a skirt.

Then, only slightly related, there's the ways that 'high-maintenance' is thrown around. We feel compelled to defend against it (or for it) like hot-potato that no one really wants to be left holding. When in reality it's another way to slap a label and grade on our ass and by that, a value. No thanks for that.

I said heternormative, earlier because I think that Queer is a thinking-community: I know, that's a bold statement but I stand by it. :)

I have never been high maintenance---ever in any sense of the word. And I'm not exactly high femme, though I can pull out all the stops for a special occasion.

But I am femme most assuredly. It really is an attitude.

I think that in years past I didn't invest in myself as I do now. And that's necessary. Anyone, but especially a femme, needs to have clothes they love and that fit and flatter, personal products (makeup, perfume, hair products---as you guys have your favorites) that make them feel confident and special, and whatever else that enhances her (or hys/his) self-esteem. Though we don't need that to produce our own personal strut or swagger, they do help.

High maintenance (financial or emotional) can impact a relationship IF the person (femme or butch/ftm/man) puts her (or hys/his) needs/wants first to the point that the other person feels used or discounted. Drama factors into this as well.

The accoutrements of a person's personal style shouldn't control a person's behavior.

Femme does not equal high maintenance. High femme shouldn't either. But society expects the cost to be high because we assume that it takes a lot of work to be attractive. Well, some people look amazing with just soap and water. It's an inner beauty that comes through.

And many of us femmes will be very frugal with the elements of our personal style, caring for our clothes, handbags, shoes, and being very economical with our makeup and scents. We know how much they cost and it is our decisions to take a part of our paychecks to replace them as we are able. I would NEVER expect someone else to pay my expenses in any fashion.

I guess for me, it is how someone uses the term "high femme". If people are saying a "high femme" is the type of femme all femmes should strive to be, or is better than any other type of femme, than to me they are talking hierarchies and I do struggle with seeing that as a good thing. If they are just using it as a way to describe what kind of femme they are, then I don't see that as them defining themselves any differently than a femme who describes herself as a "sporty femme". Just a different type of femme. That is how I see the term being used in a "neutral" way....it is being used as a descriptor then, with no value judgement attached to it.

To me it reminds me of the Episcopal church. I think there is something like High and Low Episcopal churches? The "high" ones are more similar to Catholic and the "low" ones are more similar to Prostestant in their thinking/services. (Or something like that? Person an Episcopalian could explain it better). Neither is better than the other, just different.

I think the problem is the name. "High" often means better in our society.

----------------------

ETA: I am now remembering femmes saying that in the past b-f culture supported a hierarchy of high femme being something all femmes should strive to be. Is this accurate? Is that still the case today? I am curious to hear from femmes on this.

Perhaps I could have just read Gemme's post and then thanked her instead of writing a post with similar points.

(not saying she agrees with me/said the esxact same thing, I am just saying that her post would have saved me some thinking and subsequent posting time)

Cloaking comments with "I don't mean to be nasty" and following it with something offensive is still offensive. Why would you state an opinion that is offensive and not yours? Obviously you expected it to get negative responses or you wouldn't have cloaked it with "not to be nasty" comment.

Hi everyone, just came to wish you all a wonderful 2012 :)

I have no interest in being High femme.

And low femme makes me think of blowjobs for some reason :innocent:

I'm not sure it has ever occurred to me to date a butch or ftm I've always been into femmes.

High femme doesn't necessarily mean high maintenance. I keep myself high-femmified on my own with no assistance from my partner. I would never ask my partner to do my hair and makeup etc because I am self sufficient. And because that would be a disaster.

I really don't like the term high maintenance at all. I think it makes women question themselves and their needs which are usually perfectly reasonable. I love and respect my partners. And I'll only date someone who who loves and respects me. In my world that includes emotional maturity, communication skills and chivalry. I certainly hope that wouldn't earn me the "high maintenance" label. And I'd never expect my partner to pay my way or buy me expensive things. In fact, that would (and does) make me really uncomfortable.

My favorite Valentines day my partner and I were both underemployed and broke. I did the laundry in the morning after he'd gone to work and spelled out I love you in sweatsocks on the bed. He made a chicken and rice dinner that night and cut canned cranberry sauce rounds into hearts. We couldn't be fancy but we could still be good to each other.

And I thought the alternative to high femme was femme. Or vice versa. I've never heard anyone self-identify as low femme. Am I wrong? Are there self identified low femmes out there?

This thread is really interesting to me, especially since I label myself as High Femme. First, I think a lot of us would say that we get to define our own labels. At least, that's what I like to think. The term "high femme" is an old term, as far as I know. To me, High Femme means really femme, extra femme, super femme, lots o' femme goin' on. And to me, it gives a little hint of old school, which is also part of my identity. In my mind, it DOES NOT mean "high maintenance" at all. I agree that high maintenance is a negative term that conjures up thoughts of someone, anyone of any identity, who requires a great amount of attention and care, be that emotional, financial, sexual, or all of the above. Anyone can be high maintenance, and it has nothing to do with High Femme. It's just a coincidence that the word High appears in both.

Also, in my opinion, calling someone or yourself a High Femme does not push that femme "upwards" to a higher level of femme-ness. There is no Femme Summer Camp (although that would be so fun!) or Femme Graduation, or Femme PhD. (If such a thing is ever invented, I want one!)

Moreover, I feel that High Femme does not suggest that there is a lower form of femme. It's interesting that so many people see things in those dichotomous terms. If this thing is high, there must be a low. If this thing is big, there must be a small. That's just not always the case. Sometimes something just IS.

We do have the power to adapt new descriptors, and we already have. Twenty-something years ago, when I was new to the b/f world, we didn't have words like boi or hy, or stone femme. Transgender was a new word. Gender queer didn't exist. Queer was being tossed around as the new cool word to use. Stone Butch Blues and The Femme Mystique had not been written yet. So as our culture evolves, our vocabulary evolves right along with us. It just takes a little while...... Meanwhile, I think a mutual respect of the labels we choose and don't choose to apply to ourselves would be fabulous. Just my humble and long-winded opinion. :)

Jumpy Jumpy Music
 

This isn't about the FTM/femme dynamic specifically (maybe tangentially) but I thought you folks might be interested:

Today I finally got a letter from my ex and close friend who went to jail on the 6th. He's an alcoholic (the reason we broke up and the reason he's in jail) he got his third DUI in November so he's serving 2-3 months. I've been worried sick this past fortnight. (as in literally sick: hives, vertigo, insomnia, nausea) What if he had been placed in mens jail or if he'd gotten sick or if he couldn't get his testosterone or if he didn't show up on his intake date at all?

As it turns out, he's in a separate medical unit because the judge didn't want to put him in mens jail. And he wasn't able to write me because he didn't have access to money for stamps. Ironically I had sent him stamps in the first letter I wrote him 2 weeks ago but they were sent back to me in an envelope stamped "return to sender, unacceptable jail material". Strange world. But now he's been able to access his money and buy stamps so we should be in regular contact.

I'm so relieved. I was shaking and crying with happiness as I read his letter. Thank goodness he's safe.

And in related news, he will be blogging about his experiences (through written letters I type up and submit) on http://www.originalplumbing.com/

He wrote the first post in the letter I got today and I've submitted it but it isn't up on the site just yet. I think it will be cathartic for him and hopefully his writing will be a valuable resource for the community because there's so little out there about the transmale experience in jail or prison.

I hope you and yours are all safe and cozy tonight! :olive:

That's great. How will we know which one is his? What name will his blog be under?

He wants to keep it anonymous so it'll be under Inmate 12004 (his partial inmate number)

Hi.. I read some threads from yall. For myself... very attracted to femmes. Some butches attracted me and Im not interestin in butches. I realized some femmes attracted FTM that i didnt know cuz couple yrs ago I told 3 of my friends that I wanted to b FTM but I was so afraid that femmes, friends or my families wont accept me for what i am. I love my family very much. I should have to do it couple yrs ago. Thanks to 2 of friends from BFP (Kent and Princess). It made me realize abt FTM. I should do it years ago (D'oh).

I think everyone is high-maintenance at different times in their life, and different people have different needs. I probably had been guilty in the past of thinking the more femme someone was, the more high maintenance they were. I have way grown past that. I do think my thinking had to do with an issue I had with femininity. My childhood and what I gathered from society were negative images of women. I had to unlearn a lot. I wasn't comfortable embracing my feminity for a long time. Now, I see things so differently. What a journey. A lot of the process was finding peace with my childhood. My mom was a stay-at home mom, there was a lot of domestic violence and alcoholism. That contributed to my thoughts of being a woman meaning dependant and weak. I didn't want to see myself that way.
As for people not being interested in someone because they are 'too this or too that'.., it just means they aren't the person for you. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you or with them. I know, rejection sucks. I've been on both sides of that coin. I kinda believe life is mostly based on fate, with a little wiggle room. The Unoverse, or God, or our higher power brings us who and what we need at the right time. It helps me deal with those derailments in life. I just believe everything will be ok, do my best, and I don't look for a significant other, I feel it will just happen when the time is right. Just live my life, be happy with who and where I am, and maybe our paths will cross, and if not, I'm okay with that too. Please pardon typos, I'm on my iPhone.

Hi Softbutch4U, it's true, femmes who like FTMs do exist. I have to say it seems to me that a lot of FTMs do date other FTMs so it's always reassuring to me as a femme to hear that there are FTMs who still like the b/f dynamic. Cause sometimes y'all seem elusive like super sexy unicorns. :smelling-flower:

Hi, 1Ladyface, I never knew FTM do date other FTM.. I think its weird but really interesting. Labor wkend in MN for mini bash.. First time I met FTM from B-F. And I looked at him and I was thinkin in my mind say.. Wow, Sure its look so much like a man. I know I met some MTFs before.(f)

I think that like every other population in the world, individuals are attracted to they simply are attracted to. Yes, data (as it stands presently), shows that many FtM's have relationships with one another as well as with butches (and some butches like other butches best). some of this makes sense when biological studies are considered about gay me and testosterone levels- they are higher than heterosexual men in significant values.

However, why wouldn't some FtM's be mainly attracted to femmes, too? Personally, I don't think that there is enough sound or replicated (which leads to the actual scientific validity of most of the variables involved here to make generalizations about. I certainly know fully transitioned FtM's that are straight (desiring femmes as well as other women), gay and bisexual. I have just never been willing to make any generalizations based upon my own subjective observations and like I said, this whole area of study just doesn't have a very long history of scientific data to consider. It always feels like so many conclusions are drawn about transpeople anyway without research, reading material available, or unfortunately, based upon bigotry/bias- even within the queer community.

I know it is difficult sometimes to "get" why let's say, a butch prefers other butches (I have often just not understood this myself) just because one is a butch that is totally attracted to femmes. Same applies to FtM's sometimes. But, haven't we all been quite puzzled by human attraction at times? From not being able to figure out why 2 people are even with each other? Who knows! hell, there have been times post dating someone and wondered "what was I thinking?"

In these types of discussions, I always fear assumptions or generalizations about people that are just not based upon fact- or that are based upon stereotypes, transphobia or just plain lack of information.

"But, haven't we all been quite puzzled by human attraction at times? From not being able to figure out why 2 people are even with each other? Who knows! hell, there have been times post dating someone and wondered "what was I thinking?""

Hi Atlast,

It is mysterious. I frequently wonder why I'm so very drawn to FTM id'ed folks and not even a little bit attracted to cisdudes. But when you've had cock that's always hard and that can be whatever size, shape and color you want...why take your chances with a messy fleshy thing that could get you pregnant and give you terrible diseases?

Oh. I think I've answered my own question. Maybe (in my case) it isn't so mysterious.

Wow! There's a lot going on in this thread...

Personally, I struggle with my feminine presentation because I am often not recognized as a queer woman. Apparently I am too femme to be gay/queer or I am thought to be a "fag hag" (i really hate that term).

I love masculinity, and that is a major quality I am looking for in a partner. That's why I am attracted to butches and FTMs. In my geographical area, though, most trans folks are dating other trans folks or those who are reinterpreting their gender/abandoning the concept of gender altogether.

It boggles my mind that there appears to be a certain "look" that is attractive to the trans community here, and I am not it.

I'm grateful for this thread, though. I feel like I am learning a lot about other people/areas and how interpretations of masculinity and femininity are different, and affect people in different ways.

PSA
 

FYI 1ladyface, even in a *butch/ftm* sexual encounter one can contract sexually transmitted diseases, it's not just with biological dudes, unprotected sex of ANY kind be it gay, trans, straight, bi will pass on STD's if you aren't using protection.


We (queers) are not immune to STD's.

Thank you lady snow. I'm aware of that. I suppose i should have just said STI risk is greatly increased when you sleep with cisdudes.

No, we are not! And thank you for pointing this out- let's all be safer and use common sense.. and always be prepared! LOL, ya' nevah' know what could happen, even with this old butch!

And, yes, I find what attraction can culminate in very mysterious some times.

Hi All,

I mentioned last week that my good friend and ex (a transman) will be blogging about his experiences in jail. The first entry was posted today.

originalplumbing.com

I have to say, I think of the OP community as really warm and supportive, but there have so far been some dumb assumptions and less-then-supportive comments which are upsetting to me. Not sure what my role is in this because I want Inmate 12004 to be able to respond himself but it's so hard not to jump in and just say "dammit, be nice." sigh. I guess I'm just feeling protective of him since I know he's in a vulnerable position. Anyway, I think the blog and the comment thread are worth reading.

lots of love to this warm supportive community,

a somewhat saddened ladyface

I agree with what you have posted, I know with all the surgeries I have had in the last 2 years I have been very high maintenance!!! to me it is not about femmes and or money, it is more a state of mind, high maintenance is something I would say maybe about anyone that drains the life or energy or money sometimes out of someone else and like I said i know in the past I could be seen to be high maintenance.
Surgeries all finished so right back to normal maintenance!
I do like this thread, I love Femmes and am extremely attracted to Femmes,
Queer Femmes, High Femmes
Femmes in a tshirt and jeans, no makeup ,yup femmes!!
there is nothing sexier then a femme in a mens suit!

Femmes for me
 

This guy has ALWAYS been attracted to femmes & always will be. I like all kinds of folks but, for sexual attraction, dating, marriage.....<never again...lol>.....it's femme for me. I'd like to meet some other guys for chatting & sharing experiences....but just as friends.

Ive always been attracted to feminine women, I admire butches/transguys/men for their masculinity & individual qualities but am never attracted to them sexually. However i once went out with a femme who said she loved the "male" thing about me but it wouldnt matter to her whether i was butch/femme/whatever, she liked me for who i am - whilst that was lovely and so was she, being on the verge of transitioning then, it DID matter to me. I couldnt deal with her seeing me as anything but male. Im attracted to women but not AS another woman..........:blink:

FTMs attracted to Femmes
 

I never thought I'd find myself in a place like this again - ten years ago I fell in love with a wonderful man, a gentleman, a fabulous lover (the best ever) male or female - I was married to a bio-male (sorry if the terms I use are not correct and I don't mind being corrected) for five years - the next 22 I spent with a butch, and for a few short years I had two relationships with with one butch and one person who ID as transman and preferred female pronouns because it made life easier for hym- and then I met my first FTM - to I liked him, I liked him a lot, but I wasn't sure that I could allow myself to fall in love with him - he made me see and feel like I was really home when I was in his arms - our transition was an amazing one - he was male - and he snagged me - he swept me off my feet - he spanked my buttocks and made me love it <wink> his level of intelligence and his sense of humor was off the charts and I thought this was the grandest relationship there was ever created on earth - and time pivoted - and then as life does, we changed for so many different reasons - and eventually it was time for both of us to move on - he moved several states away - and I couldn't.
I'm telling you, mark my words, if one of you femmes out there has the chance to meet him - when you are introduced to him, you will find out exactly what I'm talking about.
Because of him, I am hoping that in my new journey of being single I will be lead into the arms of an FTM who wants to co-create a new journey in joy and love - and maybe it will be forever - a femme can dream.