The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

You're right, and I was the one who wasn't clear.

[quote=tantalizingfemme;860840]
I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth. :)

[quote=Kobi;860846]Thanks. Was just checking. ;)

I like how we're all playing so nice with each other.

As a feminist who believes in supporting all women, without judgment, I just want to say yay to those who do choose to change their last name and yay to those who don't. It all boils down to personal choice.

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

I would definitely take my partner's name. And not for any of the reasons to or not to that I've been reading about in the thread, but simply because it's a lovely old school tradition and one that I personally find endearing and a small measure or token in sharing of my love. I adore the idea of the sharing in a name and two becoming one and I would have no issue in taking her name.

Having said that though, I do have to also say that I really like what you two have done together. It's sweet and unique and seems quite apropos. Nicely done.

I guess the first that I think when I read this is so what? What if they choose to do that?

All of what you say is probably true, and were it not for tradition and the norm of "our" culture to take the "masculine" surname, we would all have our own surnames forever and ever amen.

I work/worked with a mostly hispanic population; mostly fresh from Mexico or first generation citizens, where the women (most not all) did not take their husband's name when they married, instead they kept their family names.
They were just as married as i was, just as committed as we are...it really is a matter of culture and personal taste.

There really is no right or wrong, no good or bad, it is a very personal choice. I am no better or worse than you for taking Kasey's name, but for "us" it has helped when i'm in the hospital, among other things. She would have taken my last name when we married, but it is hard to spell, and mispronounced
constantly. Even though it was my hetro married name, after 22 years it was mine, but neither one of us wanted to keep it.

I have no issue with keeping your own (collective your) name, rock on with
the freedom of making personal choices...it wasn't all that long ago when it wasn't even possible to marry, let alone change your name without an expensive court mess.

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.

Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?

I hear you and I think your logic is sound and your question is valid and it's something that I'm wondering about too.

Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

Not at all. That is what I assumed that was what you were saying. Or perhaps you only see it that way in terms of biological males? I thought you were saying this is why you did not take your ex-husband's name? Or perhaps I didn't understand your post?

We have friends that have been together for quite a while one of them came into the relationship with a child from a former marriage they also have child from AI that the more butch of the two carried. When they got married the butch took the femmes last name her married name so that now the whole family has the same name. Yes if Desd had wanted me to take her name I would have considered it my only reason for not wishing to would have been that I am the only of my fathers children to carry his last name. I was moved to tears when Desd want to take my last name

Yes, I have noticed more and more the separate account approach. I think that whatever feels comfortable for the couple (assuming it is comfortable for both), is ok. We all define the choices we make differently. For one person, changing their name is heteronormative, for another, it creates a feeling of unity.

Well then you best have a baby with your name or it will be all for naught!

I have a friend who took his wife's name (cis male), as her family name would have died out if he did not. They had twin boys, so all is good (assuming the twins keep their last name and procreate).

i am an individual. i've felt this way no matter what the relationship, even in my Master/slave relationship, even more so.

For *me*, changing my name feels like i am giving up who i am, and i am not willing to do that.

i love how some see this ritual, i just do not feel that way.

Thank you for explaining. :-)

and you know what i love? that you would have been just fine if she didn't.

:)

I have a big family - while my sister and I are child-less at the moment, I have plentyyyyy of cousins that share my [maiden] last name. I took her last name because I didn't have a stance on it one way or the other, so the fact that it would make her happy if I did do it - why not? I also feel that it would blend/unify our families, and I wanted our future child[ren] to have it as well. While they would be linked biologically to me, they would also be connected to her not because she will be there to raise them, but because the name will be passed on to.

If someone disagrees with my logic, that's perfectly okay, because it is what it is and my family is awesome :rrose:

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

I married heterosexually this past July. I did not change my last name. It has caused so much confusion for everyone in my family and my friends. Everyone wants to address me as Mrs.....and I am still MsTia. We were given checks, addressed to Mr and Mrs.... and we both had to sign them. Both our banks wanted ID for these checks. We had to ask our friends to redo the checks. People have even said this was my way of passive aggressively not wanting to be married.
I have been MsTia for a long long time (29 years) and I dont think I need to change things

chrissy's last name is not one he IDs with. He just recently changed it to this last name, because of a legal loophole. His mother informally changed his name to her second husband's name and no one questioned it because he was so very young, but already in school.Somehow that wasnt an issue until he wanted a drivers license in a different state than his birth one.He had to go thru the legal process to change it back to his birth name. So, he could care less if I took his name.

We have considered finding a last name we both like and changing both of our last names.
but then, why the hassle?We are two old farts who just want to hang out until we die.So much drama involved,from the wedding to the name change to burial plots. I swear we are just 2 hippies passing the days together...

Part of your frustration (correct me if i'm wrong) seems to be that we are all ignoring your very valid question and defending our position whether for or against names changes. When i feel judged and ridiculed (my feeling whether valid or not) i want to do my very best to put my point of view out there as clearly as possible and explain why the collective you can't possibly be right.

Sigh...what a lot of wasted energy!

I do not see butches changing names as often as femmes changing names...most butches probably would laugh at you or be highly offended were you to suggest it. It is "normal" in our culture for women to take the males names, and in our efforts for acceptance in this society we "ape" what we see and are brought up living (most of us) in our own homes. Most see butches as the "male" partner, right or wrong, good or bad...and if i'm honest i do defer to Kasey in many things.

You know that commercial "we've come a long way baby"? Maybe not so much.

So are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? Are you proud and happy that it's that way? Or just okay with it? Or not so happy, maybe resigned to it, because "that's the way it's always been," which seems to be your point?

To "ape" something has negative connotations, so that's why I'm asking.

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

Lady Snow sees what HoneyBarbara was trying to say and speaks fearlessly. I too thought it was a valid and great question, one we're hesitant to face.

This isn't going to be an issue for me (as I know now), but I had another thought: If I were to marry into another culture or background, Latino, Chinese, etc., I'd be concerned that my partner's last name would have meaning and significance that I should not take on for myself. I hope someone understands what I'm getting at. Of course, were I to hypothetically consider marriage with anyone, that might be a moot point anyway. And, as HB and Snow said, why automatically my name in the hopper?

I reluctantly changed my name when I got married. Now, my kids, my career, and my life are all in that name. I haven't had my maiden name for 20 years, and I haven't "been" that woman for even longer, so I don't feel a need to "go back".

I'm not going to speak for anyone beside myself here. There are plenty of butch identified people that have previously posted that they have felt attached to their last name, some femmes like myself have posted that they have little attachment to a last name. My reasons were more than unification of family.
Also, when I may not be able to share biology between my partner and my children. My Society at large will recognize the significance of them
Sharing a name.

Even if my partner holds the tie to his/her last name based in his/her masculinity, that's his/her personal choice. If I choose to give up my last name based in my understanding of my femininity, again choice.
Whether people like it or not, most of our traditional understanding of marriage is steeped in patriarchy and misogyny, but it's still a default social institution

I don't think anyone would deny that there is a trend between masculinity and the desire to keep a last name. I mean, there are many things within the butch/femme community that are based in strong identification with traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. I feel that people like to repeatedly declare "heteronormative" and I feel like this is being used as some kind of measuring stick of feminism. I feel if I make the "societal norm" choice, I get dismissed as being submissive or accepting of some kind of patriarchal influence..

Many of my feminist sisters before me have fought for my rights to choose. Many of my fellow queers have fought for my rights in my country to marry.
My people have fought for my rights to have babies/ not have babies/ fuck /ditch/ marry-- to live my true life. If I choose one that seems "heteronormative"
That's a judgement call placed on me within my own oppressed community. Really folks?

The reality is for some people on these boards, the rights and freedoms associated with marriage are new (especially in the US).You're not going to gain a representative view of trends for years because I would dare to say many of the people who get married right now or have legal name changes are people with strong ties to their feelings around marriage and family and tradition. Also, let's be honest we are all still navigating the waters around legalities behind family and name changes. Some people think that giving butch last names to families especially with children, they ensure more rights in any future court battles. There may be a belief that they will have to fight less against societal institutions if people see them as the traditional society approved type of family.

Lemme just say, no matter how many traditional roles I keep, I'm still queer, still opinionated, still a rocking feminist. I can't toss those away because I'm Mrs. "Xyz", even if I choose to be a stay at home soccer mom. I'm still a queer feminist soccer mom first.

Are these biases right? Not necessarily so. But dialogue to me
Is the first step in developing an understanding. When I am "measured", I don't feel heard. Much like in your previous post, it seems like you feel unheard because butches are not defending their viewpoint (please correct me if I'm wrong).

We are looking at a subcommunity of the greater GBLTQ community --the data and the norms are going to be skewed. It is my hope that we, as a butch femme community, can to allow for different expressions of masculinity and femininity without dismissing them as heteronormative.

So to sort of sum it up: Unless we (femmes) voice and take a stand against something that's been ingrained in most of us since we were young, we basically "default" to it?

In psychology we were discussing how there are things we "know" that we can't say how we know, things that were ingrained in us when we were young that we never question. This thread reminds me of that reading.

I obviously can't answer for why butches "laugh" at the option of taking their partner's name. I think it just depends on the person. Same way there are femme's that would prefer to keep their last name. Perhaps some butches view themselves as masculine and equate masculinity in part with retaining their own identity. I can call my wife Daddy all I want and we can have sex using toys resembling phallic symbols that some would scoff at (lesbians? toys that looks like dicks? oh my, say it isn't so! imo - i rather use one that looks like a dick instead of a dolphin, but i regress..), but she is female-identified at the end of day and okay with that. Does that explain why she would consider the option of taking my last name had I suggested it? I don't know. I don't think being masculine-identified automatically means you won't change your last name, but does it mean the majority of masculine-identified won't? I don't have an answer for that.

I think there are other factors to take into account as well, such as if they have a connection to their last name (only sibling with it, family has strong roots and is proud of their name, it's a cultural 'thing'- could not think of the appropriate word here). I just don't think it's as cut and dry as "you're butch/transman/masculine-identified/whatever" and that is why you're less likely to take your partner's name. That might be part of it, might not, but I think there are other factors to look at too.

That is the extent of my picking it apart. :goodluck:

More thoughts
 

Conditioning, we've all been conditioned that male = superior. The engrained lack of value in women is normal and we somehow have become accepting. Blood lineage to some folks is important, if you ask a group of women what sex they would prefer if they had a child most would say "a boy" because it's thought and believed that male carries more weight in the passing of the name, which to me makes zero sense since women are givers of life.

There are probably hundreds of factors as to why we take on the name of the spouse but the one I keep coming back to is that whole primal Clan of the Cavebear stuff where women mean nothing unless someone/something else is attached to them be it via marriage, child bearing or feminine presentation...

Great dialogue!



P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

I've noticed since I've gotten married, when I have to give my last name the person requesting it often tilts their head, furrows their brow and says "Isaac? But you're a redhead, surely you're Irish, so you must be married!"

I've never looked at someone and even questioned their last name and how it did/didn't match their appearance.

Though, we had a regular customer at Lowe's and her last name was Shoemaker. That did tickle me a little bit. :rrose:

You are asking a valid question. I think some of us butches have answered it indirectly.

If you need a direct response.....I would not take a femmes name for the same reasons I would not want a femme to take my name. To recap, marriage and the symbols of it have historically been derogatory to women. As a butch and a woman, that chaffs me.

In addition, women of my generation were socialized to believe that you could accomplish a multitude of things but until you are partnered, you have not accomplished your "role" as prescribed by society. And, you were validated as having fulfilled your "role" by a very public declaration of your partnership i.e. marriage, name changes or modifications. This also chaffs me.

Above any other id, I am a woman and a feminist. And, as a woman, I have a really hard time playing into anything that is symbolic of the sexism and misogyny of our society. And, I have a really hard time trying to romanticize something that directly or indirectly symbolizes the oppression of women.



Snow, I love your passion and exuberance and always have, even when I don't agree with the content.

I appreciate when you give your feminist pep talks. However, I have a hard time when you put butches/men/guys in one big masculine glop and make generalizations about who we are and what we think.

It irks me (excessive chaffing) when I, as a woman, feminist, and butch are seen as part of a group that undervalues or sees femmes/women as something less than.

It irks me when I am addressing sexism and misogyny, internal and external and women are taking issue with me as tho I cant possibly know what the woman experience is like. Hello?

It is disheartening to advocate for my people i.e. women and to be put down or turned into fillet de butch for doing so.

Just once, you know, it would be nice to be appreciated for being a woman, a butch, and for speaking to sexism, misogyny, and stuff. Cuz, it affects me too.

I do appreciate that you are a butch speaking to sexism and misogyny.

I think there is a tacit vibe going on during this conversation, and that is, that if you are a "real" butch or a "real" femme, you embrace the butch-name-dominance model.

Maybe I'm being paranoid?

Anyway, when a butch speaks out in this discussion against butch-name-dominance, it defuses that vibe, at least for me, and even if it's just in my head.

Just a small clarification
 

Kobi, I'm not purposely trying to irk you, nor was I "giving a feminist pep talk", matter of fact I wasn't even posting from any kind of feminist thought in mind, my post came from thinking about it and reading all the posts. My post and participation in this thread is like everyone else just thoughts and opinions on th subject matter. As for the reasoning as to why I used *Butches/Men/Guys* , well I did that cause this particular online venue caters to all of those identities and more... I ALSO stated in my post that "My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc."

So you see I was very clear upfront about how I wasn't making blanket statements about anyone. :)


And now I'm out, I enjoyed the dialogue and will continue reading:)

As a butch and a woman who is married to a femme who is a strong Independent woman I just wanted to say we did NOT get married to ape the hetro population and the reason she took my last name had nothing to do with apeing hetro marriage. I asked her to be my wife as a sign to her and the whole world that I am committed to her to shout to the world and our families the wonder and beauty of the love we share that for the rest of my life she is my partner in all things. We are equal in all things I do not feel that because I am the butch I am the dominant partner. She did not lose herself when she took my name we created a new branch in our families. Our reason for her taking my name has NOTHING to do with my being butch but everything to do with me being my father's only child that carries his name and at least for me about giving her the one thing that I had NEVER given anyone else something that is precious to me

*My opinion* and I always speak from my own perceptions and feelings.

There also feels to me, an underlying tacit vibe that one is not a real feminist if one wants to change their name to their partner's last name.

Fuck that.

No one has brainwashed me.

No one has socialized me to believe that to accomplish a multitude of things, I had to be partnered in society <<< paraphrasing of course.

I will change my name when I want to, because I want to.

As my girl-friend would be more than happy to tell you (if she visited the planet); I don't do anything I don't want to do.

My family name is a symbol of a lifetime of abuse.

My married name is a symbol of same.

This is not some abstract concept.

This is my real life. If we marry: I am changing my name to hers. Hell, I am considering doing it regardless.

Because I can. Because I want to.

I am a feminist in love.