I think a lot of folks had many reactions to several of the issues that evolved out of the original post. I wrote mine no more or less "very emotionally" than anyone else has posted here. I might add, are women not frequently told by bio men that they are "very emotional" when voicing an opinion strongly? That is another thread, I guess.

Did I react negatively to being told I "snubbed my nose" and was "judgmental" to those with different opinions? Yes. That clearly felt like a personal attack to me. Actually, it was. I ensure that I make no personal attacks or use judgmental attacks on others when I disagree and pride myself on that. Should I have said that the poster appeared to be devils advocate? No, I should not have. I was being reactive and I do apologize for that. I do not feel proud of my reaction in that case.

As I have said in many posts since I joined, that is the beauty of the Planet: that we are all entitled to our reactions, both positive and negative and I believe that several folks in this thread agreed and several did not.

One post can prompt 10 different opinions. I may not agree with 5 of the 10 and may say so, but I defend to the end their right to that opinion and to say so (as long as we do so without personal attacks on those with which we disagree).

We do not all have to agree and we certainly can support opinions both pro and con, as anyone can see by all posts in this thread.

I feel for any femme or butch dealing with a breakup-regardless of who they may be.

All of us know what that feels like.

I will never apologize for advocating kindness towards anyone's sadness, be it loss of a relationship or any other type of loss. It does not matter to me if one is a close friend or someone I hardly know.

I advocated for discretion with the person she only knew casually. No nose rubbing was necessary-in my opinion.

The friend issues was an offshoot that just arose as it usually does around here. No, I personally would not date the ex of a friend. Again, my opinion!

I state my own opinion, just the same way everyone else does on the Planet.

Wow, you completely misinterpreted my post. Not sure why you are so defensive to a simple post pointing out how I noticed how much you care about your friend.

Btw, this is coming as femme to femme, not bio-male to femme.

Something I meant to ask: Was your friend there with the new person she was seeing?

If not, would it have been different (at least in your mind, since you can't answer for her) if she had been there with her new gf?

If she was there with the new gf, do you feel that she would be obligated to not be affectionate with her new gf in front of her ex?

I'm just trying to understand.

Actually, she went by herself. She had not started to date. The break-up was pretty new. She did not know the ex would be there with someone new.

I am off to bed now.

Good night all.

I guess it was the "very emotional" phrase and maybe now, the "so defensive".

I did like the "how much you care for your friend". That was nice and I should have noted that.

Thank you.

I do not believe in a femme code. I certainly don't believe in a butch code. I have straight female friends and just me dyke friends and butch friends and gay male friends and straight male friends.

they all get the same love, affection and appreciation. My bestest, oldest friend is a straight woman. Three closest, most adored friends are a butch, a bisexual girl with no ID, and a dyke who ID's as "dolly mixture" (a licorice candy bag of all sorts)

I have very close femme friends but they don't get anymore special treatment or coded behaviour than the rest of my cherished friends, that would be weird to me.

Would I flirt with an aquaintence's ex partner? probably. I'm sure she's an adult and knows that her partner will start to see other people.

When my wife and I broke, we divided things up socially - who would get what night where, and we'd text each other to let the other know if we were going to be at an event. Why? because we didn't want to see each other flirting or snogging or whatever with other people AND it's NOT anyone's responsibility for our feelings around each other as an ex couple. It was up to us to deal with it. I've always done this with my exes - for X amount of time we do not attend the same events so that we do not restrict each other and we do not have to see things we do not want to see.

I would assume that everyone else took that same due care like the grown ups they are supposed to be and not shove that responsibility onto other people.

Would I date a recent ex of a close friend? no. I have slept with exes of close-ish friends after a period of time apart that I thought was reasonable - one in particular, a year had passed and she was engaged to someone else. I told her what had happened. her reaction was a *bit* on the dramatic side. She ran out of the house crying. She then tried to kick me out of the house we were living together in and the rest of the girls in the house said I had broken a "code" and got pretty fucking nasty to me. I pointed out that perhaps if she felt THAT strongly about Eric, perhaps she shouldn't be marrying someone else??? If she didn't know she felt that way about Eric still, maybe it's a bloody good thing she's just found out??

I left the house and was made into a harlot because I broke "the code". Pfft. Codes can suck my fat chunky asshole. I made a judgement of action based on what I knew about individuals. Codes are for things like bikers clubs or boy scouts or freemasons. Not a gender group that I have nothing in common with save for the same gender presentation. I thought third wave feminism proved that not all women have the same experiences? That can be extended to any gender representation.

Sorry, no code for me. respect as individuals and an expectation for them to take care of themselves.

ETA: I just remembered... a long time aquaintance of mine was married and in an open relationship. She was shagging someone who was interested in me and I was interested in her. She spoke to her, telling her that she would be dating me. She was pissy but accepted it. We started dating. My friendly aquaintance with that femme... well she stopped talking to me. My date then broke with her because she no longer wanted to be screwing more than one person at a time. my femme aquaintance then threw me hostile looks at events. Fair enough, her feelings were hurt. However, she was married to someone and what happened between my date and her was not my making or business - it was for them to sort out. And if she didn't want to talk to me... I understood. However, I knew she'd get over it. She did. about three months later we were all talking and laughing at the same table in the pub and at one point she'd come over, give me a hug and sit on my date's lap and we'd talk.

My ex housemate and I have never spoken again. She made me into a demon and took no responsibility for how she felt or communicated.

People, if they assume responsibilty for their own emotions and relationships, get over things.

oh applause. sheer, unadulterated, appreciative, whole hearted, high fivin', fist bumping, and completely uncensored OH HELL YES! HELL YES THEY DAMN WELL DO applause

(going back to my corner now)

just gotta come back and highlight another part of this freaking AWESOME post! serious. i'm OVER the "code" mentality.

i'm also over the "waiting code".. that's the one that says a person has to wait a mysteriously determined amount of time before dating after a break up.

the "waiting code" says: if you dont wait long enough you're a whore and if you wait too long you've become maudlin.

BULL

if you choose not to wait very long that doesnt mean you're not aching over your break up. it means that you're human and want connection with other humans. conversely, being alone or waiting doesnt mean you're depressed. it might just mean that you're happy on your own!

everyone's code should be self-determined.

Bouncing off HB
 

That's odd to me as well.

If my friend is getting married and she's flipping out over an ex I'd be like WTF:|

If you're marrying X why does what G do bother you?

That kind of ownership after a break up mentality is downright oogy.

This thread has taken on a whole new spin on things...

What i read was the OP's "friend" was dating however crushed that the "ex" was "FLIRTING" mind you yes i agree with snow....that's just creepy and there is no logic to that kind of ownership...

Some things in life may be upsetting, so if advice for your friend is needed my advice would be to tell you friend to get over it that the ex has every right to "flirt" and in reality if the ex chose to date they have that right as well....or i might suggest the friend continue going out on her own dates or even knowing my snarky self i might say what gives you the right to date others and deny that person theirs all at the same time....makes no sense in my book

again this thread went from the original question of 2 people flirting only the one not even knowing the OP's friend let alone could call them close or what have you. So in essence it wouldn't matter who the ex was flirting with......

The title could have reflected the question better as if to say is it ok to flirt with a complete stranger's ex beau....it may not have gotten all this heated yet great attention yet that's in essence what the topic in the original comment is about strangers who happen to see each other occasionally non the less still strangers......

just my opinion....

as i read here more and more this thread somewhat reminds of that game my friends in junior high played you know that one where they whisper something in each other's ear and by the end of the 10th person it isn't even what was stated to begin with, I was never "good" at that game because i could never make shit up ...so i don't remember what it was called but this thread reminds me somewhat of that.

Bouncing off gaea's post
 

See I don't see the Junior high telephone game going on you're speaking of gaea, maybe it's because some of the Femme's posting happen to be real time, online friends so therefore some folks are posting from their POV. I went and re-read the OP her questions opened up this conversation to a wide variety of different opinions, thoughs, and personal experiences.

It happens in ALL threads, the conversation takes on different highways, roads, intersections where no ones experience or words will match.

Or maybe I'm missing something or have forgotten what Junior High was like, thank Hey Zeus I have cause Jr High SUCKED!

right? It did for me as well....

I have this sort of logical brain though that wanted to see the questions addressed and flirting became about dating and sex and what have you....I have enjoyed the thread and all the different views.

Thoughts
 

Well, flirting for "me" doesn't nor should it lead to fucking/dating, it's an art. Unless the intent is to fuck/date I'm going go with the "flirt" is different be it body language, the change in energy etc.

Online flirtations are gonna be harder to interpret because of the lack of physical viewing.

I hope I'm making sense.

wow. i went out of town without my computer for one day and now i can't catch up, LOL. i can't wait to read the rest of this thread (maybe later today?) but for now...

i'm friends with almost all of my exes, and it's more or less something i feel comfortable talking to them about. i wouldn't object to a friend dating an ex of mine offhand. there are exes i still carry a bit of a torch for and it's bittersweet when i know they're in a new relationship, so it might take some adjusting for me especially if they were in a new relationship with my friend. but i wouldn't expect friends NOT to date my exes.

i'd talk to a friend before i dated their ex. it's a bit funny - i had a date on wednesday with an (offline) friend's ex - and the friend was the one to set me up with her ex. but they also have a more or less friendly relationship now (they were together for several years). if i knew jumping into a relationship with a friend's ex might cause problems, though, i'd definitely talk with them about it first. it would depend a lot on how my friend felt and why, for me.

you are making absolute sense to me....that was my point....and who are we in all honesty to trash a femme sister based on our own experiences....

this girl a stranger to all of us as well as the OP isn't even here to defend herself.....and what the OP heard is rumor at best.

YES THIS. for me, talking to a friend (or an ex), regardless of how they identify, when there's a potential situation where they might be dating my ex or i might be dating theirs - that's being a nice human being. i'd do that with anyone. i'm not really sure i understand the femme code of loyalty stuff. but i date femmes, too.

i am not sure how being open to dating a friend's ex is tantamount to throwing away a friendship - it seems like that's the basic assumption of many posts on this thread. i have many friendships where that's absolutely not the case (and many of those friendships are with femmes). obviously if there was someone i cared about - like, say, snow or midnight or someone else here, or a friend i have offline, or even an acquaintance - i would ask them first. if they considered it crossing a boundary or felt really strongly about it i most likely wouldn't date their ex - it's not worth it to me. especially if they were a "i'd call you at 4am in a crisis" friend (like the friend who set me up with her ex, who definitely is a close friend). but for me it is not an automatic assumption.

Thoughts
 

Not all Femmes are my sisters I'll be their ally, supporter etc. I can't date my sister or brother:|

right i agree....

so where does the stranger owe some sort of sister code to the friend of the OP?
there's just way to many variables here
and it sorta feels like a witch hunt if i may.....

Oy!
 

I think when our friends are hurt we support them and listen and shake em when they're being irrational.

I don't think Anya is rousing up the masses and lighting torches, or at least that wasn't the intent * I * read...

I just thought she was asking for input:|

aishah, you absolutely need to come hang out at the pool and drink umbrella drinks with me....because I love this.

For me, this is also where kindness, respect and taking some care for the feelings of people that we once at least claimed to care about comes in. It can be really, really hard to see an ex move on...and if there's overt flirting in front of us or "she's so much better than you" stuff going on....it just hurts.

So....yes, I would date the ex of an acquaintance, but if we ended up at the same event together, for instance, I wouldn't be climbing into my honey's lap and trying to elicit some "get a room" commentary either. Well, I don't do that in public at all anyway, but you get the picture. I think it's perfectly possible to move on without trampling on the feelings of the people we used to be with.

Sometimes it just calls for a little discretion, and I think adults should be capable of that.

I'm still in the "no way in hell when it comes to dating exes of close friends" camp though (with regard to my own choices only)....that would just feel super icky to me personally.

thanks for getting it, jo :) <3

disclaimer: the following is just my opinion on jealousy from my own personal experience, and how i choose to live my life. not judging anyone else's feelings on this matter.

i think for me there's also an element of - my being polyamorous, to me at least means that i have certain feelings/opinions about jealousy, etc.

one of those feelings/opinions is that - if an ex and a friend dating is bittersweet for me or makes me feel jealous or upset - that feeling jealous or upset is MY problem. not theirs. same goes with a current partner dating someone else. i don't see it as my personal right to say that they should not be happy together because it makes me upset.

obviously there's an element of discretion involved - if we just went through a bad breakup a month ago, don't be an asshat and date my ex and rub it in my face. and ask me first or break it to me gently.

but part of why i don't consider it a right to deny my friends and exes the possibility of dating is because - if it makes me feel shitty, that's because -i- have issues i need to work on. (i mean, unless there are other issues going on, like the ex and the friend shouldn't be together because one of them is a terrible human being, or something.)

Thinking out loud
 

I guess for me I'm not going to police or expect for people who I'm not fucking/dating/involved with to filter their PDA. If I can't handle my EX's new interest then *I* need to take myself out of that harms way. Personal responsibility is key to a good healthy start when dealing these situations.


It would be uncomfortable for My Pack if i got all uncomfy cause their father was doing something with Lynn cause they went to Niagara Falls and we didn't. It would be unfair to my peoples.

I love this.

I'm uber-sensitive to items of interest such as the scenario Anya described. I also believe how a person handles such issues largely exemplifies the system of values and ethics that govern their 'universe'.

I do not even think once or twice about such things.

Even here at home, my constellation of close friends is very small;
and my friendships are mostly life long, established friendships.

My priori remains and retains loyalty to those who are near and dear
to my heart. I would never cross that boundary out of mutual respect
for heart issues that are central to maintaining a healthy relationship
with these particular friendship relationships.

Love this conversation!

I think there is a huge difference in dating the ex of a heart friend and dating the ex of someone with whom you've never had an intimate friend relationship.

Scenario: Let's say June and I have been friends for 10 years and have shared extremely personal things with one another in the confines of our private, loving friendship. Let's say that Jackhammer and I are going through hard times and I confide in June about some of it and she offers advice and a shoulder to lean on. Let's say she even offers a "Ohh girl, I think it's crappy that this is happening and can't believe Jackhammer is treating you this way." She listens to me cry, she offers amazing support.

Let's say Jackhammer and I decide to call it quits.

One month later, June is calling Jackhammer (whom she does not have a primary friendship with but whom she likes as a friend) flirting and asking her on a date. What if she has never once in the 10 years of our friendship picked up the phone to call Jackhammer but has chosen this time to express her interest?

Do I get to feel betrayed by that? Do I get to question why my friend of 10 years would essentially smile in my face and offer support during my breakup all the while planning to move in once she feels the time is right. Do I get to wonder if the entire duration of our friendship, she held some kind of secret torch for my then-partner that she was not willing to discuss with me?

What I'm trying to illustrate is the betrayal of the friendship, not an ownership issue with my 'ex'.

I'd probably feel pretty betrayed for having confided in my friend and operated on the knowledge that she cared about the outcome of my breakup because she wanted me to be happy, not because she had a stake in having a chance at my ex. Does that make sense?

I don't even think that is a Femme code. It's a friend code to me. My heart friends, my sistergirls who I will call when I'm at my lowest, those people who get to have access to me when I'm feeling vulnerable? People like Snowy and Arwen and Bubblin' and Juney and Jennifer and Julie and and and, these are people whom I trust to be honest with me and to operate with integrity. I think it's a mutual agreement.

It's a shame this is in the femme zone because this so-called code exists in the butch world and actually in everyone's world. I'm with honeyb on this and don't subscribe to any kind of code other than being an adult and acting like an adult.

I don't believe anyone has advocated dating a close friend's ex without talking to the friend first.

Where folks have had different opinions is about flirting and dating the ex of an acquaintance or someone in your greater social circle.

By the way....like Snow said flirting is not fucking and I have never understood why people get their noses bent out of shape over flirting with someone.....ex of a close friend or not, attached or not.

i don't really see that as operating without integrity - that to me is the part where i guess i don't see eye to eye with many posts on this thread. to me the emphasis on values and ethics people have made here makes it feel like this is some sort of moral absolute - which - for me, it isn't. i have values and ethics. two of those are taking personal responsibility for my emotions and communicating fiercely, lovingly, and directly. those are moral absolutes for me when it comes to any relationship. i haven't taken on the friend code folks are talking about in this thread as an unwritten mutual agreement in any of my relationships.

yes, if a friend started dating an ex when they knew it was a rough time for me, WITHOUT talking to me first, i'd be suspicious as hell. but if a friend started doing ANYTHING that they knew in their heart would hurt me without being honest or talking to me about it, or if i thought they carried a torch for my partner for ten years and they didn't feel they could tell me, that's a huge ass communication problem.

then again, if i broke up with someone i'd been with for ten years, i'd expect them to act differently, too. i mean, if rick and i broke up after seven years, i'd expect him to not go out and start acting the fool tomorrow, or totally stop communicating with me. if i thought he'd carried a torch for my best friend i'd be wondering why the hell i didn't know about it for that long.

Totally get that Medusa, and yes, I would consider it a betrayal by my friend....and also shitty on the part of my ex.

There is an interesting "other side" to that as well. When my sister was married, I became very close with her husband. They were together 10 years, and he became the big brother I never had. I'd go to him for advice and help, whenever I needed that "male perspective" and he stood by me during some really incredibly tough times.

When they split, my sister was furious that I didn't immediately cease any contact with him. For me, that was shitty too. I wasn't saying "oh I talked to Bill today" to her....and he wasn't either...but she expected me to dump someone important out of my life because they couldn't get along.

Loving this convo....important stuff...and good to hear everyone's opinion.

Bouncing off Medusa's post
 

Ding ding ding, girlfriends talk, we talk about the hard shit, the ugly and the joyful. I couldn't even begin to imagine sexy time with JackHammer even 15 years after the break up.

Jack's awesome but it's almost incestual (is that a word) cause you don't have sexy time with family:|. No bueno!

I'd never fuck/date/move in on my brothers exes (I've no sisters).(born to family)

Communication
 

I think this highlights something very important.

I think that we all make relationships, friendship or love ones (or both!), that are based on shared values and expectations. That isn't a complete absolute but I will say that you won't find me having people up in my close orbit who are messy (at least not any longer) in the way of thinking that people are "things" to be taken out and used or tossed aside when the need arises.
Some folks are absolutely ok with that level of messy-type behavior. I'm not one of them.

I'm also not going to form a close bond with someone who I perceive as putting so much importance on sex (or attention-seeking or anything else) that their entire way of being revolves around getting it, at any cost.

Why? Because of that whole "at any cost" thing.

I have another question to pose?

What if a mate has passed away?

Would you mind if your best girlfriend hooked up with your partner if you passed away?

If you wouldn't mind then, then what is the difference between a live ex and a passed away partner?

My thoughts are:

I want my friends happy

I want my ex's (after the period of wishing them to be devoured by flesh eating demons has passed) happy...

Every one of my relationships ended because my then partner and I were not a good match... Why would I want to prevent a possible good match where both my ex and my friend found a life time love? or even just a really good time...

Would it bother me, hurt me? ya, but that's my issue... I have possession issues and if someone was once mine, then they are always mine... But I know that's not real, not healthy, and not true... It's my issue and I deal with it...

The possibility of real ever lasting real mother fucking love is slim... I'm lucky to have tasted real love twice.. I wouldn't want to be the one that stood in two other people's way... even if it hurt like hell...