Why is that an of course?

Yes race matters, no MoC is not only for non-white folks, though it finds its roots in communities of color. I am not saying anyone needs to accept me or how I name myself that is the point. Therefore I ask's everyone I meet to self identify, yes it is a lot of work, but resisting my several forms of privilege is work, hard work, painful work, healing work. So I will keep saying it Race matters in everything and it is not the job of POC to talk about it, it is mine as I am raced too. I wrote this this morning on my FB Page

The construction of the "White Anti-racist" in a "Post-Racial" World is still about white folks looking outside themselves to solve their internal bias's about race. It is a form of White speak (double speak for it is still about us). Racism is not a issue over there or in some other person it is inside us. The work and invitation is to work on ourselves first, not point out the obvious. Healing and change start at home, in our own hearts and minds, then we might have a better chance of dismantling both internal and structural racism. Stay Blessed
I can not separate out race and gender as they are linked in the material world and have consequences good and bad.

Here is a link to my blog where I ask other white folks to engage in conversations about what it means to be white. http://twistedqueer.wordpress.com/

The hardest thing I had to realize is that How others see me matters in how they response to my Body, not my heart, In the world I am seen in almost 80% of my life as White and male, not Butch and masculine. Painful as that truth is. That Truth was not made by me, it is a structural system that I live in queer or not.
Race and gender create for me white male privilege, and as a white masculine queer feminist raised in queer community since I was 18 that is painful to see and accept, not from a place of guilt or shame but from a place of awakening and healing.

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

[QUOTE=julieisafemme;732361]I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins [/QUOTE
THe origins of the word come from the medical field and is about naming difference that needs correction, yes we have reclaimed it, but is roots lie in Mental Illness as the place to define, mark and correct that which the center has named "normal"

Aaack! I am on an iPad and I can't figure out how to paste! So sorry! I will fire up the pc!

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

[quote=nowandthen;732403]The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point

Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

Aishah, I'm sorry. My post was not clear. I was referring to "Butches" that monitor, the use of the label Butch. I have never felt pushed by people using the label MOC that it is a "must." It did sadden me to learn there are younger POC Butches, Studs, Aggressives that are unaware that there were older POC during the years immediatley following Stonewall that did ID as Butch and were proud of it. There were also many Lesbians that now ID as Butch that would not claim Butch back in the day.

I strongly believe it is up to the individual to ID themselves as they choose, and sometimes their ID is something they grow into.

Ok!! On a pc now!

From BBP's website

"Mission

The Brown Boi Project is a community of masculine of center womyn, men, two-spirit people, transmen, and our allies committed to transforming our privilege of masculinity, gender, and race into tools for achieving Racial and Gender Justice.

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

Core Values

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people, and ourselves accountable for its accompanying privileges. We draw on a gender inclusive framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and empowerment of feminine identified people, especially women and girls.

We value Justice: We are a broad, diverse community of activists, philanthropists, rebels, and leaders who are driven by a commitment to racial justice, gender justice, and transforming our privilege of masculinity into a tool for social change. We prioritize support that improves the lives of masculine of center womyn; queer and trans people, and people of color - work that transforms the lives of women and girls and introduces new alliances and tools for challenging racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia across our communities.

We value critical inquiry: We recognize that building community requires time, effort and sacrifice. We see questions as essential to growth, renewal, and the overturning of ideas that harm our communities. We support innovative organizations that provide places to share and grow collectively and individually, those that align social justice movements and open new dialogues at the margins.

We value tenacity: We are bold, daring, fearless, and steadfast in challenging assumptions and conventions in ways that resonate and connect with grassroots communities of color. We think critically and strategically in search of the best answers and approaches. We live at the intersections, transgressing boundaries and bringing about new dialogues.

We value innovation: We approach our work with optimism, think boldly, and see new ideas as opportunities for transformation, forward growth, and social change."

i disagree re: history - mostly because i am hypersensitive to the issue of racism and lack of rootedness in context and experience - but i am grateful for the background and can see where the resistance due to centering male id'ed folks comes from. i think we have had that discussion here on the planet several times also (re: male id'ed butches being privileged over female id'ed butches).

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not). the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

i do get the resistance around male id'ed butches being centered, though. that at least makes the controversy make more sense to me.

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'supposed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up , disappointing and news to me

[quote=julieisafemme;732408]All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

Your whole post resonated so much with me but I wanted to thank you in particular for this excerpt (I bolded one part that is such a good clear summary of an important point that helps people "get" the b/f identity).

Yes it was. I am not an academic and struggle to understand things sometimes. What happened at the conference for me is I could feel the racial tension and the tension between butches who identify with female or male pronouns. Sometimes it was so overwhelming I had to leave the room. It made me sick to stomach. It was not disappointing or fucked up though. I also felt love, acceptance, civility and an honest attempt by many to understand and repair the damage. I felt hopeful and I learned a LOT.

BBP ran an intergenerational panel workshop of butches/MoC. Greyson and Toughy were on the panel. The youngest participant was 16! It was absolutely transforming to me and I got to see Cole at work and saw how wonderfully she handled the stories and the really intense emotions that came up.

It may not have been for everyone. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

[quote=nowandthen;732428]Thank you! I so appreciate learning the roots of words.

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

And that stuff is sometimes super sad. Usually it gets some reaction on this site.

I agree. And I agree with Julie that reclaiming and redefining masculinity is hugely worthwhile.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

One can do all that without creating an umbrella term with masculine a the defining characteristic.

Sure! You can. I don't think BBP was creating an umbrella term for the masses. I don't really know. It is a term that was useful for the work that they are doing. I don't speak for BBP or Cole. I am just trying to communicate what I have seen, heard and learned. Obviously I am not great at parsing things in an academic way. When people dismiss the term it makes me feel sad. It is an emotional response. You don't have to agree or even understand it.

Martina, your post gives me something more to think about. I do identitfy as masculine it is my ID. For me, I do not see masculinity as male or female.

I did not think I was giving masculinity a place of regard in the conventional sense. Perhaps I have been. I need to think about it. I grew up surrounded by very strong women that could be defined as masculine and their strength was not a negative.

I have learned quite a a bit here in the forumns through the years. Thanks to you and others.

i find the fact that bbp puts issues of masculinity at the forefront of their work to be really awesome because i have lived in communities of color that are in crisis because of the intersection of gendered violence and colonialism. i think that's why the term - and their discussions of masculinity and femininity - resonate with me so much. i think their work and the discussions they spark by attempting to re-envision masculinity is very very necessary. (i also have no argument against being grouped under the umbrella term "feminine of center," although i don't find it unproblematic by any means.) i definitely agree that we need to have more discussions about how not to turn around and recreate masculine spaces that are misogynist. and maybe this isn't the right umbrella term. (fuck all the umbrella terms! except, you know, let's find each other so we can work in solidarity. but seriously, fuck all the umbrella terms.)

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

See and that was the whole point. To many young MoC butch does NOT include them. That is why BV tried to add in MoC to include those for whom Butch does not resonate or feel good.

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

I'm exhausted, my head is spinning
 

I cannot begin tell everyone how much I appreciate the opinons, the facts, the beliefs, the politics and even the bias of this subject.

My challenge is to recognize the culture (my predispostion to white butch culture?) that inadvertantly establishes a bias. I also want to reflect and address who and where I am within that. I guess most notably any unintentional fallout from my staunchly defending my Butch id which then may be percieved as exclusionary... It was in my "blind spot" and I was unaware that in my unabashed support of Butch, I may have set up a predispostion to exclusion. Who knew ?

My head is really spinning over this...
good night -

Although I do not want to use MOC for myself, I did understand how they believed that Butch was a white identity. I guess because I am old enough to remember when white lesbians shunned using Butch as an identity, and there were POC Butches. Today there are many White Female Identified Butches. I am not saying that is a bad thing.

I think for me what is the hardest and most painful part is to know that my good heart and intention along with my marginalization as a queer is a white experience which is not an easy thing to see, name and work on. When we as white folks talk about race most often we are looking out instead of in and locating ourselves in the system. Being a white queer masculine person has its benefits even when if I am called sir 9 out of ten times and I know I am not. I am not racially profiled everywhere I go, in fact when I am assumed male I am often asked for my thoughts on subjects I know nothing about. In my last relationship, I was assumed to have the college education as well as my family with only one parent who had a HS diploma and my girlfriend is a lawyer and her parents went to college but she is a WOC. My point is part of keeping things the same is the use of white guilt as a tool of policing the system. So as much as I want to think my experience is the same as other butch's or MoC or any other label the one thing I can not escape is that of being white and that come with unearned privilege. So I keep pushing, unlearning and healing, and that which is giving light grows

I do not id as being masucline at all. The world's stereotyping put's that crap on my ass imo. I am a lesbian that loves being a woman and loves loving a woman. I refuse to accept the stereotypical lables of what a woman should wear, carry or act. I'm am highly offended when anyone attempts to deam what I have the right to think about myself and think they have the right to determine how I define to ID myself.

I hope Jack will come in here and discuss her experience with the BV conference. She was on the very first "steering" committee for all of 30 days. She chose to leave when it became clear to her that the Aging Female "Butch" in "Butch Voices" was going to take a back seat.

That's her story to tell and I hope she tells it.

One thing I will say is that I was really glad to see that there was a push to welcome and embrace young masculinities of color, experiences of different abilities, and folks with non-traditional masculine experiences. It was time for it.

Something that happened for me when I was on the original steering committee for the Femme Collective is that my world of "what I didn't know" was expanded. And it hurt like hell sometimes. And this is where I tell you I fought pretty hard to police "Femme" from Men. Was that my privilege talking or my fear? Was that my indignant belief that Femme was Queer and Female? At the time, I had to let some of my shit go. Some of that shit that I had fought really hard to claim, because, in the end, the most important thing for me was that I was recognized for who I was and that all of my sisters were recognized for who they were.

I don't know what the point of this was, but there it is.

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

bookmarking to read later

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>