Tapu to the rescue.
Got a pussy? Like pussy exclusively? Yer a lesbian.
And there you have. You are not a Lesbian if you do not indulge in the mighty pussy.

As far as the thanking of posts. I wrote about this in the other thread. I might not agree with what the poster is saying, but often - I will thank them for their participation.

And yes, I am rather Ranty (love the descriptor of me) I think it fits rather well.

PUSSY MANIFESTO
 

Sadly that depends Julie, cause I LOVE PUSSY, I do, I love cunts, vaginas, labias, panochas, pootnanie, so on and so on.

But, I have been told I can not be lesbian, so I guess it all depends who is going to police lesbian that day.

I have another question about this fucking shit, what happens to the Trans Women who can't afford bottom surgery and are in this very community, are the not lesbians? Cause I believe they are 100% my lesbian, Femme comrades. STOP ERASING THEM

That is one big problem that needs to be solved I believe, or not either way


I LOVE PUSSY I eat it like a Lion.

My quote was not complete when tapu quoted me and was therefore out of context.

I just hate, hate lesbian-bashing.

It makes my skin crawl and my back get up.

I also hate stone-bashing.

I hate Trans-bashing.

If I left your ID or gender out- purely accidental. I hate you getting bashed, too.

Enough already.

FFS, do we not have to deal enough with being pitted against each other in the real world?

Does it have to happen here, too?

Really?

Well okay Tapu, your definition doesn't work for me. It feels quite narrow and I don't like people being reduced to body parts- or one body part.

Ya know Snow... My partner does not like hys pussy ventured upon. I am okay with saying such, as hy has openly discussed this in the Stone Butch thread. I spent years loving the pussy - devouring it as it should be... But now, my pussy days are over.

I love MY PUSSY! Oh yes I do. Therefore, I am.

MTF's are still not allowed or welcomed at Michigan Womyn's FEST. They will never (this place) get my patronage.

And you are not considered a Lesbian (let us not forget) because you are lovin/fuckin on a trans guy. <shrugs> Oh the rules that have been bestowed upon us.

responding to Anya's post:


FFS, do we not have to deal enough with being pitted against each other in the real world?

Does it have to happen here, too?

I am not weighing in on the politics and particulars of ID.
But when you say" we have to deal with enough with being pitted against each other in the real world? Does it have to happen here, too".

This is exactly what happens when people are marginalized in the dominant society: they turn against each other, the rage builds up, the splits occur and everyone walks away saying "how did this happen". Not to get too psychological her but this happens when people deal with race "she is too black, she is too white" socioeconomic status: "real rich vs. neuvaux (sp) rich.

Do I know the answer to the dynamics ensuing, no. Except, when we become conscious of it we may true to move into the position of empathy...being empathic to all the differences. That is hard, not sure I do it at all, but I am trying to become more aware of it.

I know this is not a sexy post...but everyone is struggling so hard with this that maybe a discussion around why this is so hard, why we can be bashing towards each other is not ok, should ensue. How we want to handle these differences.

This isn't much of a celebration of butch femininity. :( BUTCHES ROCK!!!

I fear that if we knew what you were actually saying half the time, your posts would be even MORE offensive.

Well, serious threads on similar topics seem to veer into whatever is the site preoccupation or issue of the day. It's inevitable. Some folks try to move them back toward the original intent, but it tends to just kill the thread. Eventually this will die down, and the thread will return to its original purpose.

The idea of butch femininity was bound to bring up a lot, in any case. Yes, there are lots of other gender politics being discussed. From my point of view, so be it.

I dislike it when people get whiplash because someone wants to put the breaks on a conversation for basically formal reasons -- it's not the original topic, for example. If it gets out of hand -- offending and hurting -- then, by all means, stop it. Otherwise, I say, let things go where they go. My opinion.

And the conversation straying a bit does not imply anyone does not think butches rock, if that was part of what you meant.

So far what I've noticed in reading here is that some people have been offended, even hurt, by what some other people or groups have said. Some friends have been lost, some made; but what I don't see is anyone saying they changed who they were or wanted to be because of what was said. Can make you wonder how deep this all really runs.

On a more personal note:
I started to write a small history of how I came to this site and why I'm still wandering around with bullet holes in my back from my first days here in chat. In the midst of that, I received an email which I'll quote here:

"In my heart I am not a failure or a loser.
Not asking for a magic wand. I get up and wait in county lines for aid or food 4 hours sometimes 6 a day.
I am hungry and hopeless.
Medi-care is causing me to start all over again.My medication i need was denied . I am fighting it and have a state hearing . another nightmare. tirred. i am so tired.
i need help from you, but understand
i liked hearing your voice today"

And that's where I lost my train of thought in this thread.

I don't mind that the conversation strayed. It's a lively discussion. I just wanted to jump in with a celebratory kudos to butches. That's all. :)

I did.
But I'm really conscious I'm yarping in a butch thread about myself, presently.

Are you saying someone asked you for money???

If that is what you got from my post then I obviously need to stop posting here.

And I fear that no matter what I could ever say, you'd find yourself offended.

Cheers~

Yes, I understand your objections. How would you phrase a bare-bones, dictionary definition of a lesbian? (That was all I was trying to get at. There are differences and nuances I recognize, outside life in a dictionary.)

Thank you for your direct, and respectful, response, btw. That was great.

Just sayin.
 

Okay, give me your basic definition of the English language word lesbian.

Just give us at this point where to start: those semantic features that are necessary and sufficient to add up to "lesbian"

Tapu, please do not use the reputation comments to me to post critical/unfriendly remarks. My understanding is that that is against the TOS.

Yes, maam, just didn't want to make that remark public since it was just to you.

But I'll read up on TOS before I post anything to or near you again.

We should just ignore her. This is what happens so often. You are having a serious discussion, and a crackpot comes in and pushes everyone's buttons and derails it. She's having a good time, but everyone else is not.

Tapu, *Anya* posted the above textbook definition earlier which you already quoted, but here it is again.

I would say this holds true a majority of the time in the world at large not as much in butch femme circles.

There are quite a number of femme lesbians who are partnered with/date male id/trans men. They still call themselves lesbians but are not strictly "women loving women." Just one example, and they have their own reasons and personal connections for why they id as lesbian.

People id with lesbian in different ways. For some, it strictly speaks to sexual orientation, for some perhaps to gender, for others community- either they have related to lesbian communities in the past and/or do so now.

For me, it is about sexual orientation (I am a butch woman attracted to femme women) and community (I have friendships and ties to real world community). I don't really like of lesbian as gender for myself really. I think of my gender as butch, but I often feel I have to qualify it with woman, lesbian and stone butch to be understood.

I don't think it is a good idea to define lesbian based on body parts. First of all, not to reduce us to body parts and second of all because in this community people relate to their physical bodies and genitals in different ways. So what I have downstairs might be anatomically the same as someone else but they might relate to it entirely different, yet we could still both be lesbians, or not.

Some might do well to reread my definition and not saddle it with connotation.

For example, "like pussy exclusively" does not entail any nuances of "has to enjoy having hers touched," "has to touch it to like it."

Also, a MTF trans qualifies if they have a pussy.

Hey, words DO have meanings. Otherwise, this would be Babel....

If you are speaking to me


"i need help from you, but understand i liked hearing your voice today"
I can empathize with what comes before this one sentence then I am distracted by what feels to me like a play for emotional drainage or a play for money. I have seen it a lot in the online community so it is a red flag to me. I was concerned for you, nothing more.

I just want to point out I feel your response to me to be short, dismissive, and insinuates that I am not "getting it". That is no way to have a reasonable conversation and totally goes against what we are trying to accomplish here.

Gosh, Martina, was it something I said?

Please take your personal vendetta private or away, and discuss only the topic here. There must be something in the TOS about that.

sorry can't edit, but my above post I meant I don't really think of lesbian as my gender (not like).

Guess you get the last word.

I'd like to add something, if I may.

First, this is not meant as patronizing at all but I truly need to say that this might have been one of the best debates I've seen on this site in a while. Not because it is without clash, but because I see folks truly trying to have a conversation. This is a tough one, no doubt, but I believe there has been positive movement in how we discuss this issue on this site. (Yes, "this issue" being Lesbian-bashing and gender intersections.)

Also, I'd like to give voice to the fact that I, too, do not want to see this site turn into open season on Lesbians. I identify as a Lesbian and this is my space too. Many people here do identify as a Lesbian or have identified as Lesbians in their gender history so I'd hate to see that level of vilification turned inward.

I think the thing that is important to remember is that everyone of every gender on this site has a history, both with themselves and with people and groups of other genders. I think we can all agree that our experiences color the way we see people and thus, can lead to prejudices, stereotyping, and labeling people against their consent.
Are we wrong to develop prejudices toward other people or groups of people? The short and politically correct answer would be YES!!!!
The truth, though, is that this happens sometimes whether we want it to or not.
I don't believe for one second that there is a single person on this site who has never looked at a Fat person and thought their fatness was "gross" or that they were "smelly" or looked at a group of Black males walking down the road at night and clutched their purse or made fun of "little people" or thought that a High Femme was "playacting" or thought that an old person probably didn't have sex any more or insert any number of bullshit things that can go through the heads of human beings when they are young or unevolved or low-level thinkers or hell, when they've not checked their prejudices.
These are, of course, extreme examples but I'm trying to illustrate that every one of us has some level of context about other groups that we may need to work on.

And why did I illustrate with such extreme examples? Because these are things that I can think of that we could form prejudices on that MAY IN FACT have some truth or history behind them.

For example, don't tell me that every single fat person in this world smells like a rose because we all know that's bullshit. Why? Because not every HUMAN BEING smells like a rose.
Don't tell me that a group of Black males walking down the road at night has NEVER grabbed a woman's purse. Why? Because HUMAN BEINGS in groups have grabbed women's purses.
Don't tell me that every person over 80 is still having sex. Why? Because some HUMAN BEINGS over 80 can't or won't or don't want to.

This is clumsy of me but I'm trying to say that when people give examples of things that have happened to them by Lesbians or Transmen or Femmes or Butches and then someone from the group that the example was given of comes in and tries to basically re-write history and say that it has NEVERRRRRRR been that way, IT. MAKES. ME. CRAZY.

Because an attempt to sterilize real, live experiences so that people can feel better about their own personal identity is complete and utter BULLSHIT and it's a waste of time on these threads. And you know what else it is? It's a fucking LIE.

If a Stone Butch comes on and and says "I've had several Femmes try to penetrate me against my will. WTF is that?" and some Stone Femmes come back in the thread and basically try to tell that Butch they are offended and that it never happend and "Femmes don't do that" then, inevitably, start reporting posts and finger-waggling about how we are allowing "Stone Femme-bashing", it feels like we are being asked to participate in magical thinking.

I have felt that way a couple of times with "Lesbian-bashing" concerns, just as I have with "Trans-bashing" and even "woman-bashing" in general. (using quotes to distinguish language that has become part of our dictionary here, not because I don't believe in it or that it happens)

Conversly, people sometimes need to do a little work around how they talk about their history here. Not cool to be all "most Femmes do x, y, z" or "Back when I was 20, most Butches were this, this, or this".
Still, I submit that generalizing is sometimes the language that people have and while it may suck and piss us off, it is OFTEN valuable to listen to what is being said versus HOW it is being said. I'm always curious how people got to the opinion that a group of human beings thousands of people deep are all "insert attribute here".

Doesn't mean we don't get to call people out when they made ridiculous statements and it certainly doesnt mean we need to put up with any bull where stereotypes are held up as the "truth". I'd just like to think we can move forward, not even necessarily while agreeing with one another, if we concede that everyone is coming from a different place, all funnelled into this weird-ass little microchasm that has a long, entrenched history of gobbledygook that we've learned and unlearned a thousand times.

I personally struggled with creating a Lesbian "zone" on this site. In my mind, this entire site is a Lesbian zone and I felt that the zone was privileged or even separatist in that I felt it tried to divest itself of the yin and yang of what makes this site space special (that of honoring the Butch-and-Femme-as-Nouns dynamic).
And this is where my own history of being around Lesbian separatists who wanted nothing to do with Butch/Femme/Trans or even women with any level of masculinity intersected with my "zone" feelings. So, this is me giving a live example of how our histories and lived experience sometimes inform us unfairly or fairly, depending on how you process it.

Anyway, I'm rambling and forgot my point here but I'd like to keep going in this thread in all of its winding roads. Good discussion.

I can't agree with the MTF only qualifying if she has a "pussy"...she qualifies because she is a woman..period

Thank you for your concern weatherboi and I apologise for having misinterpreted your response which I found "short, dismissive and insinuate(ing). I do wish to have "a reasonable conversation" and would never want to "totally (go) against what we are trying to accomplish here".

In an effort to avoid being further ostracised from that "we", I am now disengaging from this issue with you.

I understand the pull to include MTF and FTM both as lesbians, but you must admit that they seem like they form a subcategory or a caveat to the definition of lesbian, as it means in the general parlance.

I don't mind people stepping outside the parlance. Matter of fact I honor it directly and personally with some MTF's I know. But they are special categories to "lesbian." The unmarked form does not include them.

Please allow me to make something very clear. I don't care who thanks me or doesn't thank me. Who sends me messages or doesn't. I have no horse in this race and don't want one.

I just wanted to send out a kudos to the site Admin for NOT shutting this thread down. Do I understand the guts of it .... no, but I can appreciate the healthy debate , the going back and forth the thread is creating. I've seen a few times on this site a thread shut down because someone went against the grain of the majority or stepped on someones toes.

We need more of these thread, the meat and potatoes, stick to your ribs threads

then we would all have our own subcategory...wouldn't we, and we would all fall under the umbrella term of lesbian. Then, right there in itself should prevent division and not continue the break down of a community.

Curious
 

Does this statement apply to you as we'll? Thanks you for clarifying ahead of time.

I think I understand... what is your definition of lesbian then? I mean, what are the basic semantic features that describe the category "Lesbian," so that you can have your umbrella?

If I criticize another woman, that does not make it misogyny. I still think that holding up Megan Ellison as some kind of example is highly questionable. I have class politics too. It's not all about feminism all the time. And being a feminist doesn't mean you abandon reason and support all women regardless. There are some bad women out there.

How would we criticize Michelle Bachman or Megyn Kelly's insanity if we never questioned a word spoken by another woman?