Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobi
(Post 959818)
Ok Im confused so help me out here.
When I read this, I am hearing a woman only wears lingerie, strikes a provocative pose and requires validation from an outside source to feel sexy. To me, this is a very male oriented, very hetero oriented mindset.
Are you saying a woman should never or would never wear sexy lingerie just to please herself?
I dont have a male mindset or a hetero mindset, so I dont get it. Can you explain it to me and what this has to do with being pc?
|
As much as I respect Kobi and her convictions (and I really, truly do), I'm going to strongly disagree with what was said here and use what was said as a sort of jumping off point for some other things while I'm at it.
Telling a queer woman that her choice to wear lingerie
for her partner is aping heterosexuality, that she has a "hetero" mindset, or an internalized male gaze is pretty shitty. No one exists outside of patriarchy, nor do their choices. Consciously eschewing the use of lingerie (either for yourself or for others) is still a reaction to patriarchy (just a different one) and does not grant anyone special status as being above it all or somehow a better feminist.
It also erases sexual relationships between femme/feminine women while throwing straight women de facto under the bus and denying them any sort of sexual agency at all.
I don't need to wear lingerie when I'm scouring a pot or cleaning out the catbox. It's impractical and I reject the patriarchal notion that in order to be sexy at all, I must be sexy all the time. I don't need to feel, act, or present myself as sexual or sexually available 24/7 to be entitled to the few moments that I do and am.
I would like to see fall by the wayside this idea that it's somehow bad or problematic for a woman (especially a feminist woman) to want to please a partner sexually or derive pleasure from seeing their partner made happy or aroused by something they're doing/saying/wearing/whatever. I understand that the place that critique comes from is one where women are expected to please at the
expense of themselves and at all times and without ever asking anything in return and I respect the critique and the women who have made it. The problem comes when we cannot do anything at all for the special person/people in our lives without someone else getting up in arms about how this is another thing we as women are doing wrong and if we enjoy any of the elements of conventional femininity then we are bad, silly women who have been brainwashed into accepting our own objectification and we and our misguided attempts at living our lives as feminists serve as a contrast and foil for the better, more pure, more educated feminists who reject All The Things because they have a more enlightened understanding of the One True Way of Feminism, unlike you, you silly, deluded, uneducated little thing (cue feminist headpats and condescending headshakes).
Frankly, it sounds like a lot of the same Madonna/Whore bullshit just under a different name.
I personally would love to see a feminist lingerie site with women of all shapes, sizes, colours, ages, who are differently abled and photographed in alternative poses and simulated action shots a la
Betty Draper and the neighbour's pigeons from Mad Men... but barring that, I and (I trust) every woman on here does the best with what is publicly available while also recognizing some of the more problematic elements that dog these photos and where they come from.
I've tried to think of a way in which, within this reality that we live in and not in some feminist utopia from the future, where it would be 100% feminist to post photos of lingerie modelled by women that does not elicit critiques of objectification, class issues, racism, sizeism and fatphobia, agism, and heteronormativity which would please everyone and somehow stand up as some exemplary representation of doing publicly visible feminist sexuality right and... I can't.
So, given that, when is it acceptable for women to show themselves as sexual people (whether authentically or simulated) in public? Is it ever okay? What does that look like and who gets to put the feminist stamp of approval on it?
And if it's never okay because by some views patriarchy negates all agency, women are participating in their own objectification and oppression, a woman posing in a paid shoot by definition has had her consent compromised (if she's able to truly consent at all), or if women who post publicly their own conventionally sexy selfies online for public approval are just doing so for the approval of some outside source and as such, viewed as somehow weaker or less-than feminists... then are women
ever allowed to be fully human if they're not allowed to be fully sexual?
You know, I spent a hell of a lot of time denying my own sexuality and sexual agency in the name of rejecting self-objectification and Being A Good Feminist and I'm finally getting to the place where I'm able to see myself as an attractive person entitled to wear these things and pose in these poses without looking stupid or being an object of fun. I'm not about to let paternalism under the guise of feminist critique take that away again. It's taken a long while for me to even come close to feeling desirable in my own body and yes, it does help when I'm able to elicit a certain response from my partner in that way, and if lingerie helps, then lingerie helps. So what? My emotional landscape and my self-concept are not formed and do not exist within a vacuum and if outside validation and approval helps them along, then damn it, so be it. Who cares and who's to judge me or any woman for that? I engage in these behaviours and wear these clothes and do these things with my partner because I'm human and my experiences are more complex and real than some goddamn academic theory.
I respect and appreciate how Gemme's points were framed in a very personal-to-her way and how she explained how it made her feel
as a feminine woman and the inner conflicts she was dealing with. I share them much of the time and I think I understand where she's coming from. It's a conversation worth hashing out, especially one specific to femmes. The points Kobi made, I'm sorry, but they were made personal by way of individualized jabs and innuendos by implying that Candelion had a hetero mindset and that the people participating in this thread were bad feminists who made her "sad" because they weren't doing their feminism in the way she would. I don't see how insulting people and then making a grand exit from the thread ("carry on") contributes to the conversation. At the end of the day, it seems that the focus is on femmes no matter what, whether it's trying to separate a heteronormative and commodified male gaze from authentic expressions of female sexuality and femininity, struggling with not internalizing the objectifying messages which can sometimes accompany these photos, wilting under the pressure to be "greater-than" (while all the while ending up feeling "less-than"), or having to justify to someone else why it is they do what they do and just what kind of feminist exactly they think they're trying to be...? Meanwhile, when it comes to personal behaviour here, the butches seem to get off relatively scot-free. Funny, that...
For me, when I post something to
this thread (and I often take breaks from it too for the same reasons that Gemme stated), it's because I've come across a great collection of lingerie photos which I'd like to share
with the other femmes here. It's a "hey, I saw this and I thought you might like it. Isn't it great?" form of femme-bonding. It's a "hmmm, I never thought to pair pearls like this with animal print lingerie but it works here" or "wow, maybe her body looks like mine/yours/ours and she can really rock that sexy garter belt" or just "I've had a long day and maybe you have too so here are some pretty, fluffy photos of some really nice pieces of lingerie (which are evocative of more pleasant moments) for you to decompress with." It's a way to share an appreciation of clothes and femmeness and reclaiming (and in some instances, claiming for the first time) one of the more conventional aspects of femininity for our own pleasure (by and for
those who want it). And for me, this thread has little to do with what does or doesn't go on in my bedroom. If you want to appreciate or scowl at it privately, then you're certainly free to do so, but having someone who doesn't identify as femme in any way or adorn themselves with the accoutrements posted herein come in to post and either leer
or criticize the wearing of it and tell women that they're doing it wrong, it leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth.
Understanding is not a prerequisite for respect.
