I too would like to thank Dylan, although I fail to see the "rude, crude...disrespectful, sexist tirade" that some seem to be referring too. Maybe Dylan just needs to feel the same way on the insides as everyone thinks he should and then the world would be at peace and Mother Earth would continue to spin? Hurry up Dylan! I've heard that if the world stops spinning that the gravitational pull stops too and we will all just be floating around. I can't get dressed without gravitational pull and I have to go to work!

And I would like to apologize to the OP for daring to say that Butch can stand alone for some because well - we are all women right? Wait? We're not all women? Some are born into the wrong bodies? WTF? <---which stands for WHAT THE FUCK - and yes, I fully admit that I'm rather crude at times. Just so I can understand... not everyone feels like *woman* is their gender? For some people they really do feel like they have another gender? And this has absolutely no bearing on anyone else's gender or how they view themselves? But it IS a choice right? I mean, just like being a queer or a dyke, or big old flaming homo is? Because I've heard that. Why on earth would anyone chose to be a man or just a butch or justananything but a female ID'd woman when clearly that is the better choice? Wow that IS strange, unless I am completely misunderstanding and it's not a choice? If it's not a choice but they still want to not be women we don't have to talk to them right? Because society I've heard tends to see us all the same, except those lucky enough to pass as men who then get all the privilege, well until someone finds out the truth about where they came from or maybe not? Shouldn't the people who don't feel like a woman inside just shut up so that women can have their women only space? Their one little corner of paradise with all that yucky maleness or brazen masculinity? Oh, wait that is ok as long as they are thrilled about being born as a woman and their personal herstory?? Maybe as a historian I have a poor take on current events but I swear that lots of people feel the same way about other minority groups as well? Even me? Well of course not me? Ha! Lots of people know me and I don't look gay, so I'm ok right? RIGHT? Wait, I'm not? If they find out I'm queer I'm just as fucked as everyone else who is also queer? So can I still march with everyone else because of the whole strength in numbers thing or is that a bad idea? Well, we all know that those gender choosing not to be women don't ID as queer or even butch or fags or gay...wait..wait some do? Seriously? What's next chocolate pop rocks? O-M-F-G they have those too? Pop rocks are the shiznit. So if non-women who were born female can't be who they are in here and I want to fuck one/partner with one/go to Red Lobster (not that I do of course because this is hypothetical and I wouldn't want my queer card pulled), do I need to go into a dark back alley? Does anyone know where this dark alley is? NOT that I am going there...I am NOT. That would be silly, since they have no business dating among us, outside the purity of all things butch femme, which we have defined right?

Sorry, I'm not sure how long one has to go on in a post before it becomes a tirade... Can I get a letter count?

I find it fascinating that a very polite request to be acknowledged—to be seen and heard, by a member of this online community, has been dismissed repeatedly, and their vulnerability has been met with arrogance displayed in a very cavalier manner. I dare say, that if the roles were reversed, there would be a call for all all non-woman members, to be burned at the stake.

It baffles me why there is so much animosity toward those who are not women on this site—it is not a woman only space. We could be strong allies, yet there are those, who repeatedly choose to create a line, and perpetuate this us against them mentality.

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

How about now Dylan is the great divider and has an agenda?

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

Thank you Lady Snow.

I came into this thread and asked a question oh way back at the beginning....got a nice pm from the OP, and an actual illuminating response from Bit (thank you ....again :rrose: ), but my honest, "please educate me because I'm new here" question got completely ignored. Instead it sounds like more and more of an old fight.

Honestly, I'm disappointed.

I hear less drama about all this "how do you ID" from my own mother these days (which is saying something...let me tell you...for her to accept that I have a butch partner is probably a sign of the next coming....but anyway....)

At the risk of sounding like I'm asking us all to stand in a circle and sing....I have to say that I'm frustrated. I'm still very new to this community, and I was thrilled to find everyone here....he/she/hy/ze...the ftm and mtf...the daddis and girls...the leather/bdsm (k...I don't read those threads cuz I scare easy, but hey...I'm glad you're here).

I appreciate the diversity here. I don't need to agree with everyone. I don't even need to understand everyone. I just don't understand why we want to spend so much of our time trying to verbally beat the crap out of each other when we have bigger fish to fry.

K...I'm done.

The issue I saw on the dash site was the sense that being male ID'd MEANT that you were trying to be a "real" butch or butchier then other butches. The default to he was being used all willy nilly instead of she. The question was asked why wasn't the natural default she? Which was a great question. Why did people default to he automatically - is that symptomatic of a greater social misogyny? That question quickly snowballed into "I am just as butch as you." This is where it gets tricky because it is at this moment that the two sides seperated.....

One side is saying because that is how I feel inside and the other side is saying that is how I feel inside...
And neither side is speaking to the actual question of why the natural default isn't she....which still IS a great topic for discussion. But it didn't solve the default problem because people were all jumping up and down for their individuality.

Yet, everyone still felt the same way on the inside and wanted to be respected for who they were. And lots of people had no idea wtf to default too because no one wanted to trample on people's insides, yet still wanted to talk to each other.

THE WONDERFUL thing about this site is the addition of the box over there
<----------------- which SOLVES the problem of how individuals want to be addressed. Default to anything no longer an issue. We can all be who we are and it be respected. YAY!

So now, with the box people can easily represent how they feel on THE INSIDE. I feel "she" on the inside. Not everyone does, I can tell because I look at the box and if I see "he" I know that means they feel "he" on the inside. Some people may not feel he or she on the inside so they could put something else in their box.

Can we ever have a question about why the default tends to be He instead of She? I doubt it. He and She are big parts of people's identities. And while I can stand back and see what happened, getting those who are mired up to their eyeballs to see what happened just doesn't seem to work.

It is almost getting comfortable for the two sides to just keep accusing the other of silencing - when in fact - they actually probably agree on the the idea that defaulting to he doesn't make a lot of sense and is a great question.

They really only disagree about how they feel inside for themselves. Which has nothing to do with the default being he as a bigger social issue...

For whatever reason they will not see as two seperate issues that have all got entangled together. So lets just keep with the lines in the sand and the argument over who's insides are more valid.

What kills me is that anyone felt the need to defend themselves against somebody's personal id and request for respect. Defend against what?

I read back through this thread and didn't see anywhere even one person say:

...there's only one way to ID as butch

...that there's only one way to be queer

...that any persons ID is wrong

...that any ID is better

...that anyone even took anothers ID as a dis to there own

...anyone accused of taking up too much space

...that butch can't stand alone

...anyone doesn't belong here

I haven't even seen any general animosity toward any other ID from any ID... OP or posters and I question seriously why anyone would want to make it look like that considering we're trying to foster community for everyone here right? Or are we trying to perpetuate some divide?

What I have seen is Dapper's post about and request that female ID being mixed up with women ID in discussion and that it makes hym uncomfortable even though hy ID's as neither. I think there was a misunderstanding that Dapper was requesting only women ID butches were responsible and should work on it.

Somewhere midway through Dapper said : "I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts."

By this time per usual because of the misunderstanding the thread was slightly derailed, I say slightly because the topic was about female and butch women being used interchangably and those ID's and related were still being spoken about.

That said... I wish that in the interest of the whole community we would read the threads before we jump in and make huge generalized sweeping negative comments about entire groups, ID's sexes or genders and then paint them as thee ones dissing, divisive or downgrading any other IDs. This is how shit gets stirred not how stuff gets fixed or threads get back on track for the OP.

Instead of really heating things up with "look! They're the one's creating all the divisiveness! Listen to what I'm going to say they did!"... how about quoting individuals? How about addressing the actual posters who offended and dealing with that person individually... unless of course we're trying actually to paint or make a statement about ALL people in that group... to which that'd be the true singling out and painting of an entire identity, sex or gender for what-ever motive.

We ALL have a right to speak up, butch women in this thread have a right to speak up here when spoken about, trans people have a right to speak up for themselves, butches have the right, femmes so on and so on... it's NOT an affront to other IDs when people do speak about themselves especially when spoken to or about in the OP.

That's one thing I definately agree we need to get the hell past...

Thank you, Chancie.

A couple more cents to add, mostly along the lines of the default to "he" when it comes to butch/femme online interaction..

I know that when I first started this trek on the b/f interwebs, "He" was my way to get in my head, ok, this is a butch instead of a femme.. It is the visual image of a person with male or mascaline engery. I didn't feel that it was anti anything.. I didn't think it could hurt anyone.. Besides, everyone was doing it.. lol

Now, I get to grow a little, stretch my brain muscle and relearn and rethink this binary way of seeing this community.. It is very diverse, but sadly, as been stated more then once, everyone gets really touch about ID's.. If you start to call me girl or she, yeah, I'd think you were an ass, because it is plainly stated about how I ID.. *shrugs*

Just some of my thoughts and experience while interacting on this and other forums.

In Light,
Tony

Martina,

When you say, "This is a backlash," what is the 'this'? Are you talking about the OP, or are you talking about my post? I kinda get the idea you're saying the OP is a backlash. And honestly, I just don't see it. The OP was referring to the fact that some butches just don't ID as 'woman'. Just like some femmes don't ID as 'woman'. Why is that seen as a 'backlash' to women?

But then, of course, when Another ID talks about their own ID, it's naturally a 'backlash' and an affront to women. Talking about another ID under the queer umbrella is always seen as victimizing women in one form or another. The perpetual victimhood of women...another reason I moved out of 2nd wave rhetoric, and into 3rd and 4th wave.

EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.

Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.

When they hijack a thread about Another's identity...they ARE silencing.

Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.

"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"

Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.

There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.

But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'. It's NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness as they see fit...no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized.

It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women.

EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.

Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything.

And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?

This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.

Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.

Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.

Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.

Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.

This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.


Dylan

Always Dylan? LOL. Perpetual victimhood. LOL. Who's crying now?

Since I am the one who pointed out the whole accusatory agenda thing towards Dylan...

I Snow (this is Snow coming from Snow space and what Snow is feeling) feel this has gotten ridiculous sometimes, notice I said sometimes not ALL the time. I get that Dapper started a space for butches, I did not *ass-u-me* it was for one type of butch or one particular butch gender, care to know why? I don't lump butches into one gender or one pronoun.

Years and years of being on these sites has taught me to look to see what butches, or femmes prefer to be addressed as, and now low and behold there is a place to the left that pretty much tells it all.. I also have learned that even if I make a mistake someone will be kind enough and correct it and I will have the courtesy to remember that.

So yes to me (once again me space) it seems like just A lot of mud slinging is A happening....

I could just be over sensitive right now I am not feeling my best....


Edited to add:

Nope I am not over sensitive

I just need to bounce out of this convo too it's just to fucking crayzee and I promised June to be good while she vacationed..

Peace out Peeps and GOOD LUCK!

Well, I am quite amazed at some of the hostility but not really surprised at the responses here. The bolded portion is what I responded to. I was never hostile towards Dapper nor hys id (which is neither butch woman or female identified butch). I haven't seen anyone be hostile towards the OP and there wouldn't be any reason to be so.

There are great threads discussing butches who don't id as women as well trans threads on this site. I haven't seen any disruption of them whatsoever and have seen butch women express their appreciation in them.

I will say for the third time here- I think there needs to be more discussion of women (butch as well as other women) in butch femme communities, not less. I will work towards trying to help create more positive spaces instead of butting up against openly hostile people. I have started a thread for Dykes and Lesbians as well as Friends and Allies. Everyone is welcome. Heart started a thread on Women as well. I hope there are more discussions about Women on this site and that people of all genders participate in them. There are other interesting topics that do not pertain to Women specifically to discuss as well.

Best Wishes,
BullDog

Linus, you are exactly right. That is what I was exactly trying to do in that first post. Not let an identity get lost in the shuffle.

And that was the reason why I wanted it in the Gender, Labels, Identities section....b/c I wanted everyone to read it and wanted to make sure it was in a section everyone would feel comfortable responding in...b/c it was written for everyone. It is why I requested in my second post that it be moved there.

I also stated this directly when BullDog said that it appeared to be directed at butch women, specifically.


Actually, Met, that is not the way I see it to have gone down. I believe that the derail happened after I clarified (on page one). I think that is pretty obvious if you look back in the thread.

BullDog...you have said a heck of a lot as to how you view me/my post/what you thought I was saying....fortunately, for me the thread is short enough that people will easily be able to see how you strangely went from "Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat." (post #17), which essentially came with a cyber handshake, to strangely seeing things in a completely different way later on.

Side note: I really appreciate all those who spoke out and indicated that they understood what it was I was trying to say. I was completely floored by the negative responses I got as I expected that at most my entire post would get a nod, as the whole post was meant to be nothing more than a simple reminder as to something many people have said many times. I had NO idea it would spark such controversy. If I had ANY sense of that possibility, I never would have posted.

Last night I believed that nothing I posted in response would be heard by the posters who misunderstood what I was saying. I worried that I would be misinterpreted and that others would perceive me as being <a lot of the things that Dylan said>, no matter what I said. So, I posted nothing....I felt very silenced. I don't now....thanks.

No kidding. How is that a response to anything i said? Re the backlash, people have said they didn't feel welcome anymore BECAUSE butch women were posting about being butch and women. i don't get that.

DO not characterize me as a second waver. You don't know my politics. i don't even follow some of this, Dylan. The pun on separate? Point? Yeah, i know that is your agenda. i think that characterization of the reaction to it is wildly overstated.

What is with you, Dylan? You do this a lot. You put words in people's mouths. It's hostile. It's rude. It exaggerates their position. Why do you do it?


i know it's not secret. You've stated it. Why, again, the paranoia, the comparison to fundies. What, what, what are you accomplishing beyond ad hominem attacks?

Re second and third wave, you've got my goat, so i am just gonna assert my creds. i studied Kristeva, Irigary, Cixous, Haraway, Butler etc. under some of the greatest scholars of their generation. Wanna talk post-second wave feminism? Let's do it.

The idea of accusing anyone who is on this site of second wave feminism is ridiculous.

Yeah i don't want to share some experiences with some men. Guess, what? i don't have to. That does not make me anything you are accusing me of.

And i said that where? The only person i said had an agenda is you. Do i think some folks are reacting because butch women have spoken up? Yes. That is not saying they have an agenda.

i think so too -- as long as there is the queerness as part of it. .
Exaggerate much? Dylan, for you it's rarely about that. You take opportunities to rephrase situations and arguments so they lack any feminist critique at all. i have seen it. Once i called you on it. Something about it bothers you. Clearly.

"Everything" and "always" -- how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

No one is stopping anyone from having any conversation. How can that even be done?

Your repeated characterization of me and others as second wavers is ABSURD. Second wave feminism has been integrated to the feminism of people of this generation, but no one who is alive and reading and participating in the world has not moved past it. For god's sake i fought the sex wars against second wave feminists.

Just because everyone has had some experience of it does not mean they don't do it to others and that specific instances and patterns should not be brought up. Who EVER said women have a special ticket? WHY, DYLAN, do you argue by putting words on other people's mouths, characaturing and exaggerating their positions? Do you think that's effective?

Again, i don't really care what thread or whatever. The direction of the argument was bringing this up again. i am sorry if the OP and others lost some space. i am not trying to rob anyone of anything.

"Stomp all over" and "Wave their finger of victimhood" -- that's a real good way to build solidarity. It's rude, Dylan.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, there are expressions of male energy that can alienate and even trigger others -- not all of whom are women, by the way. i do not deny saying this. THat does not mean that i or anyone am ANYBODY's VICTIM. i sure as hell am not.

i don't understand what you're saying.

Where is this coming from?

Who has ever ever made that assumption on this website -- that everyone is a woman and a second wave feminist or should be? That has never been the case at any time on either website.

No kidding it's a queer website. i hope it stays that way.

I am responding to the paragraph which is bold: Dapper I am glad that you no longer feel silenced.