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Dapper, Sparkle's post rang true to me and may explain why I am having so much difficulty with this. I never experienced a discrepancy between the internal and external manifestations of my gender. I am a female/woman. The struggles others may experience in this area was never part of my experience or mindset or thought process. I also never experienced any discrepancy between my gender and my sexual orientation. I am a lesbian. It never occured to me to have to or want to define myself as male or female identified. It's kind of like what part of lesbian isnt clear? The only discrepancies I have run into are the ones where my sense of who I am as a woman and a lesbian conflict with societal expectations/definitions/labels of what a woman and lesbian are. I feel the same discrepancy within the queer subculture which seems more comfortable using labels/concepts that dont fit who I am as a way to define who I am for whatever purpose it may serve. In my everyday life, I refer to myself as a lesbian which implies both my gender and sexual orientation. I rarely have the need to label it further. In everyday life, I refer to others as male or female. It never occured to me to define or have the need to define their journey to male or female. After my exposure to gender issues/discussions on this site, it still seemed more respectful, to me, to refer to the end product, so to speak, rather than the journey when dealing with individuals. Maybe I need to rethink this. I do see how on a societal level, agreeing on acceptable terms/label/descriptors would be helpful in furthering gender exploration/development/possibilites and integrating them into the prevailing binary system. |
Keeping it Simple, Silly
I am femme and I prefer the term femme.
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But maybe we can continue the conversation now. I know every one has their own terminology and it would be nice to see what language we all use.
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I am just what my descriptor oveh there <--------- says. Most of all I am a human being. One can never please all of the people all of the time Dapper.
We're all individuals and as such there just aren't enough descriptors of every one of us. I think your poll is a good example of how we are so far from heteronormative, and this is a good thing. I think defining who we are is an ongoing and fluid thing for many of us. Yey you for giving it a go! |
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What I have learned from all of the endless discussion about gender identification within our community is that it is just not steadfast- and could be very fluid, or evolving for many of us at any given time. The literature changes all of the time as new studies are published and we see new ways of considering our identities. That feels positive to me because I can gain understanding in new ways. I am a Female-Identified Butch WOMAN that views the Gender Blended Female Person model as most accurate for how I have and continue to experience myself. This model date back into the 90's. Just fits for me. Mostly, I try to hear what someone else prefers, which I know you do as well. |
I personally don't think anyone is giving Dapper a hard time. I don't like the butch classification scheme. I never have. Dapper didn't invent it. Other people are not seeing where they fit in as well.
Some have participated in the poll, some haven't. I did not, but I gave my thoughts on the question asked. |
I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Certainly I could have done better with my explanation as to what I was trying to get to in my opening post.
In the post I focused on explaining the poll and focused on describing our identities (it was actually an attempt to AVOID what happened anyway), but what I really wanted to talk about was the term cissexed and what folks think of the term. I was thinking back to when it was first discussed, sometime ago starting with Dylan and with other things that were said it seemed as through the greater trans community was seeking that the term start being used instead of bio male/bio female, for example. Every time I write the term bio male now I wonder if it is insulting to any trans members here. Yet, I have heard non trans folks say often that they don't like the term. That is where I wanted to go with this thread. BullDog, I appreciate your participation and any additional thoughts you may have about the subject, as I recall you being a non trans person who did not like the term cissexed from way back when it was first discussed. I'd appreciate it if we got away from the continued discussion about the identities I used in the poll. :):deadhorse::) |
I think this is a valuable discussion DB
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If I understand the parameters you have set forth above, the meaning of the prefix "cis-", to me, implies dominant socially held norms - connoting a heteronormative stance. Simply put: "Cis-sex" - again, to me - means that I identify wholly with the biological order I was born into. I am female - the female of the species. However, my using the term "cis-sex" is not to be confused or conflated to mean anything that might be associated with "cis-sexual," as use of the term cis-sexual, to me, implies that a person identifies with dominant socially held views about sexual orientation exhibiting heteronormative dimensions. To clarify further on the terms "cis-sex" and "cis-sexual" - I am not comfortable nor do I prefer to identify wholly with either term - except that for the fact that I am comfortable with being female. However, the non-violent anarchist in me parts ways with the term "cis-gendered" because I do not identify with dominant socially held views of performative gender, because gender is performed in socialized ways: For example, if I were to say that I am a woman, then as a woman, I might take on the behaviors of what being a woman means at a macro (larger scaled) level. But at a micro- level, I don't take on all the typical, generally understood, aspects of what being a woman means. To me, I wonder all the time about the problematic issues that seemingly are tied to terms of identity and tinker with my own perception held about said terms and the interconnections between identity, power, privilege and control (social or personal). |
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Great post. I really appreciate what you wrote above and hear what you are saying here. It makes sense to me. In the same way, that is why I believe some transpeople are preferring transsexed over transsexual, because it is about their sex (similar to the intersexed population, as Ender mentioned). I do wonder if we will see the definition of these terms change or shift overtime (or narrow or open) as we have seen the many definitions connected to transgender. |
Gender Neutral ~ Butch ~> Hippy Quote:
ie; Have always used Child or kid in place of the Girl/Boy when referencing myself in tales of my youngest years. While I can acknowlegde both, I don't see either. Been that way as long as I can remember. Within our Community I have preferenced Hy for pronoun but I don't machete peoples day to pieces if out in the Gen Pop I get she'd. I don't actually think while meandering though life that I present with either. But that's my perception, the personal one. I just don't run mah world according to Gender (or Garp, great flick). There's been a time or three I've had the audacity to allow my mind to be fancied with an internal philosophical circus rambling...one of them includes the preposterous idea that if Females and Males were equal in the Physical strength arena from the beginning of our Species, how much different things would be today. :thinking: It could take me on hours of pondering through all the leaves n branches of that Hypothetical Hooplah. :hamactor: Anyway, now I've completely fogotten what I was gonna post in the first place. Crap. :| I'm wiped out today, what with fighting the vacuum vortex Rapture tunnels n all. :rainsing: Surely the thought will find its way back. :weedsmoke: :daywalker: |
I do realize the conversation has been more heavily weighted towards identity than which terms are preferred and this is frustrating to some people. However, I actually do think there is a reason this is occurring.
I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea. As to polls, Linus tried to start one on religion and even after he maxxed out people still were coming up with more. There was also a little scuffle on whether or not Catholics were considered Christians. Oh and I was one of the pain in the ass people asking whether mustard could be considered a sandwich spread (as opposed to Sandwich Spread) in the great Mayo-Miracle Whip debate. Queers can be a pain in the ass. |
i am femme, and i use cisgendered or cismale or cisfemale because Dylan basically talked me into, it thread after thread. i was convinced that while there is a spectrum of discomfort with assigned gender, at some point there is a difference between those of us who can live with the loose fit of how we experience ourselves and the gender category assigned to us and those who never could and never will be able to.
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Ive sorta read thrue this thred and im more confused that when I started.So in that light I will say that im osof stone butch who over the years have mellowed out about all this labeling buisness..if the shoe fits wear it with pride as well as being all who u want to be in your life.Remember life changes,I am a testimonial to that.I agree with Mr.Day on so many levals...right on.
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I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:
Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender? Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender? If so, you could be cisgendered. Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much. |
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[QUOTE=BullDog;344115] I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea. QUOTE] snip No, it isn't for me at all- not clear-cut. Not even close. That is why it is important to be open to new data and theory that finally takes into consideration how gender and sex is very complex. When I talk with my intergendered cousin and her experiences throughout her 70 plus years- I am completely humbled when it comes to this entire topic. |
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I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment. If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences. |
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The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time. |
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I come from the desert southwest (southeast new mexico). Women wore pants, worked along side men on the farm/ranch. The rule of thumb is: 'the butcher she looks, the more likely she is straight'. The expectation from farm/ranch culture was that women could and should be able to do what men did. And men should be able to do what women did. I was not raised with 'women's roles' and 'men's roles'. I was in for a hella shock when I went to college and ran into this other idea about women. That is not to say I did not understand I was different. I knew I was not like other girls/women..........even the butch looking ones. I was entirely insecure in the girl-boy stuff. My first crushes were on girls even tho I could not articulate that crush. But I did know it was different and I was different. So it's a mixed bag for me............but don't call me cis-sexed and/or cis-gendered. I think the really confusing part is how 'gender' and 'sex' are interchangeable except when they are not. |
My ID is none of the above, and yet I am here :)
Interesting though! |
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