Dear E;
I love your style ! And certainly the
head-on way you broach subjects that seem
to be "blind spots" in the vision test. This thread
is an eye-opening education regarding the Femme
"smackdown" by way of Butch, Patriarchal,
Societal and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.

We are all fighting mortal combat in an effort
to be seen and not steamrolled into a homogeny
of expectation. But it pains me to think that femmes
feel they have been relegated to "Best Supporting
Actress" in our symbiotic relationships (Femme - Butch)
when the meat and potatoes of validation is : see
me for who I am.

I love this thread, and I have much to recognize. Perhaps
this is my first lesson in understanding Butchbull
behavior in the Femme china shop (not meant to
infer Femmes are delicate) as well as the snares and pitfalls
of Femme V Femme.

Lambaste me if you will, but I'm hanging around the halls ...this thread is good stuff !

signed :
Excuse me Waiter, there's a butch in my soup....
Boots

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

Arwen, thank you so much for acknowledging anti-lesbian stuff. I have not experienced this with you, ever, but having you acknowledge this affirms my experience with others, which is comforting to me. And, I came out in Minneapolis, but I think our community here in the late 70's and 80's was very similar to the upstate NY community. Thank god many of us finally found our perspective, and senses of humor, again.

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddamned day when you say shit like this!

And this is the crux of the matter, n'est pas?

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory? I can be cordial to just about anyone....but I don't feel I need to be joined at the hip to a femme just because.....does that make me a femme betrayor....a community slayer?
I can love everyone....but I don't think that means I must LIKE everyone, does it?

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?



*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

I love it when we curse.

Well, dog no.

If you're an out and out dicknit, I'm not likely to give you the time of day.

Besides, I don't wear a watch,

e

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.


:rainsing:

Diva, I could never be friends with someone just because of any one thing......and I don't expect it from anyone else either. I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all" :musicnote:

Oh yeah, good stuff there e. :goodpost: This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

I fucking love it too Diva.

So Goof and I have been talking about this thread all morning over coffee.

And I prattled onandonandon about how the femmes will trot into "masculine-space" discussions (ie--the Butch Identity thread or the Braveheart thread) and throw our pennies down, but in "femme-space" threads, it is rare that the attention is reciprocated.

It took 13 posts in here before little man posted.

In a "masculine-space" thread, usually the 3rd or 4th post is a femme.

Why?

Now, Goof pointed out that he doesn't generally post in femme-spaces because he thinks we need this space without interference. Which I totally get. BUT would we rather have the support or the space?

And now I'm being told I have to go because my breakfast is getting cold.

Personally, I prefer the support.

And I think it's about damn time.

AND... I have no trouble at all pointing out when it starts to read too much about them.

Thanks for pointing this out, blush; I've been wanting to say something too.

The Brutaly honest thred
 

Well, even though I have never felt anything but sweetness in your playing around with me Mr. Clark Kent, I have seen you be a bit biting around cyber town at times. I appreciate you saying this, it means a lot to me coming from a guyperson type like you. I guess some of the most hurtful things about lesbians I have encountered on these sites is when a butch or guytype person says "I would never date a lesbian." This makes me feel pretty much like shit. :wtf: It's hard to read something like that without internalizing it.

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. :p Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me! :walking-poodle:

Osting from the laundrymat where I'm doing my girly lacy things and no flannel or jeans of course.

Just read this in my email and thought it added to this thought.


"Your real security is yourself. You know you can do it, and they can't ever take that away from you."
-Mae West

That is what we do. We bring all of us butch and femme.

Forgive lack of pretty colors and font. Grin

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

I like the idea of this thread, bonney. Even if I don't want to date them either. ;) I understand that for them it has to do with not being a woman and that this is the strict definition they have of lesbian, but I am not ready to give up Lesbian and I'm not sure I ever will be. I don't care if it's political for me and that gets on your nerves. It is also personal. It is my story, how I came into this queer life. I honor it.

Thank you and the end.

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

Can you say more?