Obviously. LOL. You are right. It was perhaps not the right word to choose. I meant neither male nor female are a necessary addition to the identity of butch and that butch is not automatically considered a female or male identity. Although for me it is a female identity, as I am female and a woman as well as a butch and a feminist and a lesbian.

And I do identify with genderqueer but I don't identify as genderqueer because as a woman there is something about it that feels a tad erasing. But I am eternally evolving so perhaps i will find a way to reconcile the two. My feelings are probably left over from when people argued over whether femme could be a genderqueer identity.

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort! :runforhills:


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing (f)

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Love this!!!

Why? I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

perhaps this is too simple an answer....
 

What makes a butch "butch" to me is whether or not he/she/hy ID's that way.

I know a ton of lesbians who wear mens' clothes, sport short hair, maybe even pack once in a while, but they are not "butch", and they generally resent the term.

Butch is that certain je ne sais quoi that cannot be defined, and it is different within each butch person. Some are "soft", most are hard, at least at one point or another :tease: , but there is something about them that makes them Butch, and they have usually almost always been or at least felt that way.

They could wear a dress and heels, but, at least in my experience, they usually can't walk for shit. LOL

Butches are like fine chocolates, each one unique, each delicious in their own way.

Well, Dude, I like to think I do! But I am certainly not helpless.

You have no idea how sexy that is, Dude! I'd give my big toe to be able to sew! If there is something you cannot do, I will so trade you something (cookies, maybe?) for your sewing services. LOL Stereotypes are usually there for a reason, but they are never all-encompassing. If someone does not appreciate your softer side, well she's not good enough for you anyway.

:)

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post! :)

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry :tea:

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table :koolaid:
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages :rrose:
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

I did not mean to sound like you were being insensitive :), just wanted you to know its hard for all of us.:sunglass:

Nah, I was cool in Vegas, I had a date. New Orleans was really rough though. We've all come a lonnnng way since then. The Reunions are wayy more friendly on all fronts. :)

Glad you're not in the dating pool...cause you just described my man Mr Princess himself...just call me lucky :)

I agree with this Apocalipstic - it's always been hard for me to have femme friends even in the straight world...and I am sure I was partly responsible for that...at this point in my life and this stage of the game I don't take all that stuff so seriously or myself for that matter and I find it much easier to know who is real and who isn't and I love my femme friends....sadly right now most all of them live in Tennessee <3

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think ) :|

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I quess you get to say what people can and cannot say ....It's not a femme thread either but you had a lot to say about them ..But I see it's what ever YOU chose it to be ...

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

I guess that happens because some butches identify as male. And male seems to overpower and sometimes erase female. So it feels as though we are put on the defensive. And often we do have to be on the defensive because the female part of female masculinity gets lost in male posturing and bravado.

Yet the reality is that some butches don’t identify as women and some don’t even identify as female. Personally I believe butch is a default female or woman identity. It is about butch masculinity carried in a female body. It is most definitely for me about queering masculinity in a female body. And there certainly is a difference between masculine and male/man. Yet there are butches who identify as male or man. I just don’t see this as having to do with a butch identity. To me it is another identifier used in conjunction with but not a requisite part of being butch. Yet it is a part of that butch.

I remember being told growing up that my actions were not the actions of a woman. I was told that little girls didn’t act in whatever way I was acting. I finally explained that this couldn’t be true because I was in fact a girl and I was doing whatever it was I was doing so consequently girls did indeed do it. I remember how that felt when someone tried to take female from me. I am a butch but I am also a woman. Anyway knowing how that felt, I wouldn’t tell anyone else who they can be or that any action or identity takes away another. I could never say butches cannot be male or man. I just don’t think that being male or man is connected to their butchness.

Butch does not equal male or man. Man is not butch taken to its logical conclusion. Neither is male. Butch is about female masculinity or masculinity queered. But masculinity can be queered without a female identity and I don't think that erases butch. Perhaps then it is not exactly female masculinity but it is queered masculinity. And that is not your straight man’s masculinity. It is quite a different animal indeed.