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I have known butches who ID as butch but would do a double take if their girlfriend referred to them as "my butch" or frequently referred to them as butch at all. A lot of folks who are butch ID'd do not use the word a ton. I know of two who have complained when others have overused it referring to them. The others may have been trying to impose gender expectations on these people or were overly foregrounding gender.
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soo many opinions .. and all valid to ones own perspective. u can reslove it by
1. wearing a tshirt w. ur own logo and ur own ID 2. get ur own personal ID tattoo'd on ur forehead 3. or don't get mad at ppl who ID diff than u would << now theres a thought ~ 4. u can fight the world and stress urself out <<not good causes wrinkles ~ 5. just let it be known . that u r .. OH ~~ that nice person we just met ~~ ~ocean |
I remember at age fifteen being offended at being called, "girl" after finding out the definition was, "A young, immature female". I certainly did not feel that described me at all as I was a very mature, responsible and politically astute young woman. Now that I am fifty, it REALLY annoys me when I go to a restaurant with my nineteen year old daughter and the twenty year old server asks, "What can I get you girls to eat??" Really??? Oh and fuggedaboutit if she calls me, "Honey" LOL.
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On another thread I said;
“To the jackass that spent 15 minutes staring at me yesterday, your thoughts were loud and clear; "Is that a guy or a girl?" I have an answer for you...... Fuck off” In greater Chicagoland, my gender identity to the general outside world seems to be directly linked to the length of my hair regardless of my choice of clothing. I wasn’t really kidding about that. I just spent a week in South Carolina. There was no deviation; I was addressed as Ma’am 100% of the time. There is it a sign of respect and I accept it as such. My own fur bristled more at the word “Pal” (Sorry, I know you didn’t mean to offend in using it) than it did at “girl” but then again I don’t like being called dude, bro, or buddy either by people who don’t know me. At work my team is well aware of who we (my partner and I) are. I am also referred to on occasion as “girl” “hoe” and “bitch” as local colloquialism. I find no offense in it as it is intended to include me in the group rather than belittle or offend. They are all straight and often ask the most interesting (?) questions. It’s ok by me as I know they feel safe enough to ask me “stupid” questions without fear of being dressed down for doing so. For me, girl is just another word among many. We can choose to claim it as we claim dyke, pussy, c@#t (sorry guys, that word is the ultimo ick factor for me) or bitch. Or reject it as we do others along the way. I'd be interested in knowing why some "claim" a word and reverse its power while other words do not seem to make that list. |
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The exerpt looks familiar, and I'm thinking I might have read it in an introduction to an anthology, a LONG time ago. Is this the case? I have a couple of different thoughts about this -- being a published writer of erotic fiction myself, sometimes you have to tweak your words to appeal to your audience. I'm not sure that's what Tristan is doing here, but that's the vibe I got. Second, everyone has a journey, and I'll admit my own journey of involvement with people who have identified as butch and /or trans has come a LONG way, so words I may have used in the past I wouldn't use today, and views I may have had in the past don't exist today. Lastly, I know several butches who refer to themselves as "butch girl", so while those two words together may not resonate with everyone, it *is* a label that exists. That's just my six cents.... |
I'm running late so can't read the rest of the thread, but I did just read Post #14 where you explain it's a quote from 1999. Will read (and post) more later!
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It isn't about deeply seeded gender identity or whether someone ids as submissive etc. It's just real people having real conversations and the ebb and flow of language. I don't see how anyone can not read the essay by Tristan Taormino and not see that she is quite familiar with butches and that it was a butch positive piece. Isn't it all about context and intent? |
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I'm really turned on by butch lesbians. That very masculine energy whether it overt or androgynous. I especially love a faggie little butch boi. We all have different things that make our panties wet and things we find politically correct. |
Interesting conversation...
I didn't get twitchy when I read "girl", simply because I read it as a creative piece coming from her own "me" space. She likes butch girls. Others like butch bois. Others like *fill in the blank.* The word girl used to be insulting to me....back in the 80s and 90s when I was younger and working hard to stand up for myself, be independent, and be respected. Now that I'm a crone of 50 (and, yes, that's a word I like for myself :) ), I am not offended by "girl" unless there's a derogatory or sarcastic tone included. I work out 3 times a week with a group of 60, 70 and 80 year old women....who all call themselves girls. I like it. In that context, it's embracing the youthful spirit and energy they feel....and I give a wave and a "see ya later girls...have a great day!" as I leave, just like they all do. Since moving to South Florida, I've felt less "isms" than anywhere I've ever lived. It feels accepting....like whoever you are and whatever you do is all good. Snack and I sat at the beach one day, talking about this very thing as people of all ages, sizes, colors, etc. walked by. We were spotting Family...and loving that no one appeared to give a single rat's ass about what anyone else was doing. We were all too busy enjoying ourselves. Living here...I've also been called "girl" or "lady" or "ma'am" more than I ever have in my life either, but there's no edge....it's just how people greet and talk here. I'm good with it. For me, context and tone counts for more than the word used (with a few exceptions). |
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I hate when the whole, "use this exact wording because otherwise we will pound the fuck out of you because you have insulted .000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population of ______ identity, causes everyone to miss the beautiful/power/enlightening/humorous/etc., message, the person was trying to share. |
Maybe it's different for me because I'm from over the pond, but I didn't see her use of 'girl' in a negative sense at all. I've been getting called Sir now since I was 18 years old, when I finally got the courage to come out and I went from having hair down to my arse to a short back and sides, it doesn't offend me when I get called ma'am or miss or lady, I do get taken aback when it happens now, more because I'm just not used to being referred to in that manner. I ID as a GenderQueer, Masculine ID'd, Butch, Dyke, which I have to say, here in the UK, fuck, I even have to explain it frequently to my own family, let alone complete strangers walking up to me in the street who see a 6' tall dude, in mens clothes, with short hair, broad shoulders and a deep voice.
I think if we let ourselves be offended by everything out there today, we might as well just shut ourselves indoors, lock the door and throw away the key, then retreat into our own personally built forts in the living room... People are people, they make mistakes, the good ones are those who own up to it and apologise, for instance, today I was walking along the beach and had a foodbag in my pocket to collect shells and stones so that I would have less sand in my pockets by the time I got back to the car, a large, loving black lab came bounding up to me, grinning, tail wagging, expecting a treat from the bag I'd just returned to my pocket, his owners were not far behind me, the gentleman said "Don't be greedy, that fellow doesn't have any food for you!" then as he drew closer and saw my face he stopped and stuttered, "Oh dear, it's a lady, I am so sorry, I cannot apologise enough." and my reaction was to grin. It was no big deal, it is never a big deal for me, but again, as I said at the beginning, maybe it's a cultural thing from being over here ... |
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NO, I mean, my assigning a gender to panties indicates a projection of my undergarment preference on others who may share my gender id but choose for their own valid personal reasons to wear boxers WAIT, why am I assuming boxers are the opposite of panties?? What is the deal with my undergarment binary??? |
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I snipped a bit out of what you said here, so forgive me. I dont even know who you are writing to but will jump off of this to be clearer about who I am and where I am coming from. I have absoultely no problem with people who ID differently than me. If I came across that way to anyone , I apologize. I tried to carefully describe how a few words feel to me. period. For most of my life I have had close friends who I would describe as tweeners (<= in a non insulting way and have had many conversations about butch-femme stuff with them ) I love them ,they are my friends. All of them very much supported me as a baby butch when I needed it the most. I was actually refered to a butch-femme site by a bisexual I had a quite enjoyable tyrst with. (who I met on a yahoo dating thing) There was no future for us in the long term because she really desired femminine women and manly men. She knew it would be sick and wrong (lol and what a relief) to try to change me so she steered me to a place to be appreciated. That was brutally honest and I know hard for her because she liked and enjoyed me a lot but..... I warned her , I really did. Yet she was attracted to ME (but not in the perfect way ) and so it went wilty after a few months. I can not tell you how many times my life that I have dated women who have tried to soften me up, change my walk, hair and try to convince me to dress differently ( to be more OK and loved by them) I was called sir even with long hair, way back in the day. This is what (some) butches go through in life and it does become a war just to be ourselves and secure in who we are , exactly as we are. If your experiences are different from mine ,then jolly good for you ( seriously) We dont have the worry or headache of coming out constantly like femmes do , which I feel quite grateful for. When we do go out to face the world sometimes it is not exactly a picnic either. We confuse people , which is fun somedays and somedays not. My personal "resolve" is to not change who I am for anyone. ever. wrinkles show a life well lived (or character I've always heard) I have many. This chip on my shoulder, isnt really a chip it's called survival. I'm sure I'm not alone in having one and I love that it has kept me safe. |
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~~ dude ~~ not writing to anyone .. just saying :) .. thought i'd add a bit of humor ~
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I briefly dated a fifty-something male-ID'd butch -- not a member of this or the other site -- who, if say a waitress addressed us as "ladies," would have a sullen half an hour or so. I can't say it ruined too many dates, but even so. . . . . Looking back on it, I am not sure I would go out with someone now who was so easily bruised by a social reality they were sure to run up against with some frequency.
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I liked the piece. My partner is not a girl but he is a butch. I would not call him girl but he was not offended by the piece. I liked the juxtaposition of girl and butch in the piece. It highlighted the usual connotation of the word by expressing what many would say girls should not be. I understand that the word might not be acceptable to some people. Some butches don't want to be called he. I would have a problem if I wrote a piece about my partner and used he instead of girl just like she did and then was told I was being offensive, heteronormative or dated.
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