i've never liked the idea of changing my last name. and i would not expect anyone to change theirs to mine. i'll never ask. i am butch. but i don't think that has anything to do with why i don't care for the change of last names. when i originally said, "no way!", being butch never crossed my mind. i'm ok with each person hyphenating and adding the others name. that's being fair lol.

my ex wife offered to take mine instead of me taking hers. which was nice because of the automatic assumption that a femme will drop her own family history cause she's feminine. and that's what you do, right? you accommodate cause one is feminine. its traditional.
I said no. her family line is as important to her as mine is to me. we were going to hyphenate, my name first, it sounded better that way.

I'm really, really glad we didn't. we didn't have the money at the time. still expensive as hell even when legal.

changing my name back would have added extra insult to the whole process of divorce.

I won't be taking anyone's name. marriage is about love for me. my dad and his wife never changed names. my mom and her husband didn't. my cousins didn't. the few heterosexual marriages I know (my heterosexual mates don't believe in marriage, mostly) did not take the husband's name. they just didn't think it was part of a loving relationship to give up their family identity.

I'm sure plenty of people want to but until I see the norm of men taking women's names and thus the equal of butches taking femmes names, I don't think its very attractive. it's one item of heterosexism I don't buy into. mostly I'm with people who are just who they are and that just so happens to be butch. there is no inherent heterosexism in that. but the whole femme takes butch name? yeah. not comfortable with that. to me personally, that *does* feel like doing it cause the hets do it (aka that's what you do when you get married).

I was very proud to take Kasey's name, even if it wasn't originally hers; it wasn't expected or demanded, it was offered with love and the deep committment of "us".

There is absolutely nothng wrong with taking someone else's name, and i damn sure didn't disappear because of it.

To each his/her own.

Originally Posted by IslandScout
The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Posted in response by DapperButch:
Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?



No, DapperButch, I wasn't saying that you're a misogynist. That's quite a leap. I was saying, a person who wants me to change my name to hers would likely have a different set of expectations about relationships than I would and maybe, she would have more heteronormative values than I do, not that I don't love the butch/femme delineation. If it works for you and TF, that's cool.

Hey, IslandScout. It was a bit of a leap, I admit. I should have asked why you wouldn't fall in love with someone who would want that, prior to throwing out possible reasons. I am reading you to say that you have assumptions attached to people who would want that.

I do think there could be a number of reasons why someone may want someone to change their name when they marrry and it is not always about heternormative values (especially in the LGBT community). I believe that this is a huge generalization which isn't fair to those people who live a queer life and do not adhere to heteronormative ways of living. To me, your post felt shaming. Like there is something wrong with a person if they would "want" that. That is what triggered me, as my head went to those who have already posted here that they took their partner's name/desired to take their partner's name/want their partner to take their name, etc. I felt their cringe (not just my own).

However, I think I was a bit aggressive with my post, and I apologize for that.

As I said in my post to Cheryl, if you had said, "expect", I would have been right there with you.

If we want to talk patriarchy....
 

I have wanted to change my legal name for years.

My legal last name is my father's last name. My mothers last name is her maiden name she reclaimed after their divorce. My mother and I were both victims of family violence. BUT...

Because I am legally a child born of a marriage --when I went to petition for a name change --I must not only publicize it locally, I must also stand before a judge and let it stand for any members of the public to object.

At the time, I lived in the same small town as my father so I was afraid to spend all that money to do so, and have him kill my name change so easily.

It's very personal, but to me my next legal name will be my "family" name. It will be symbolic of a commitment to both my partner and my future children. It's about unification to me personally.

I don't care whether it's mixed, mashed, my partners or chosen as something new. I want to let go of my given name and it's both easier and a conscious choice.

I am engaged and I will not change my name when we marry.

I don't feel any pressure or sense of obligation to change it or NOT change it.

My decision to not change it is not tied to my feminist principles or my beliefs about the butch/femme dynamic or my desire to queer-marriage. It's nought to do with politics or legal rights.

My reasons are *all about me*

My surname was given to me by my adopted, abusive father when he married my mother, and he got it from his deadbeat, abusive dad before that, it does not have personal significance to me in a family/genealogical sense.

In fact, for many years I considered legally changing my surname to the original one on my birth certificate (my mother's maiden name) because that family name does have significant personal meaning for me.

But after a lot of time and thought, I chose not to because I decided my name is MY name. I've earned it. I've grown in to it. I've made it mine. No genealogical strings attached.

It is, for me, a symbol of my journey to learn who I am, to be who I am, and to love myself as I am.

And that is one of the reasons I will continue to keep my name when I'm married.

I also have a mother who has done the great name shuffle her entire life, and for me, that process has embodied of her lack of sense-of-self, her lack of having a personal identity separate from her husband. When she married husband #3 she decided to revert to her maiden name, having already taken two husbands' names before that, I had hoped that it signaled a shift in my mother away from her co-dependent patterns, I wished it meant she had found a sense of herself again. Sadly it hasn't meant either of those things, but that's her work - her journey - hers to figure out. I feel fortunate to be able to see and understand that about her and to have taken very valuable lessons from watching her journey.

And so another reason it is important to me, to keep my name (and my partner his), is because it symbolizes, for me, two whole and complete individuals joining together in a partnership for life.

Not the melding or merging of two-to-one which traditional marriage ceremonies and rituals seem to be so fond of. Not the "you complete me" romanticism we (general we) were raised to believe in.



Though I should add that Hack does call me "future Mrs. D*", colloquially and playfully, and it makes me smile. He also calls me his "Old Lady" because I love the television show 'Sons of Anarchy' - that term of endearment I like not so much. :P

No problem, don't worry about it. Thanks for letting me see more where you're coming from.

I have known two men personally who took their wives last name.Twenty years ago, in fact.
One , even gave up his law practice for a time, to be Mr mom to twins while his wife completed her residencies required to be a Doctor. That last part, is what marriage is about , so much more than just a name. He was all in to supporting his wife and people were completely shocked by his devotion.

When my mother became pregnant she gave up her career that had just begun to be a stay at home mother.Her self esteem and independence were deeply affected and she became a stand by your Man woman.
To the point of allowing my father to name me , after a prior girlfriend of his. I know my mom felt beat
down by This and my dads many abusive ways. In honor of her , I am considering a change.

This is a little bumpy today, bear with me. I am fighting a migraine (and am losing).

My last name is my ex-husbands name.

I originally kept it after our divorce because of the children and because I did not like my father's/family last name ( I was about to write "maiden" name and thought ick on the maiden).

If my GF and I get married, I will change my name. Not because she would expect me to but because I really like her last name!

Most of all:

Because I really, really like the thought of becoming one with her in a concrete, symbolic way.

When we go away, hotel personnel have already called me Anya Smith ( for example) because she is D. Smith.

I thought it so cool on so many levels. They were assuming, in a positive way, that we were married and that my last name was the same as hers.

It tickled me and she loved it.

I know that we will marry at some point.

I also know that I will change my name to hers. I also know that it will not make me one bit less of a feminist to do so.

( I still wish that we had a bride smilie).

Casa de Snow
 

I kept my name once upon I married the baby daddy, for tax purposes a - was added and his last name was attached....


We're not a marriage household, so no exchanging here! I do plan on a branding or cutting, for him... not me :vampire:

not opposed.
 

This is just my opinion Desd took my last name when we married it was not about owning or her belonging to me we are equals in all aspects it was not so that we could be in a hetro like state . It was one thing that I had Never given to anyone and it was precious to me that she would take my name was a honor to me as we blended our lives two into one yet neither losing our own identity. None of my brothers have our family name they were adopted by their step father I am the only one that carries the name that was gifted to me by my father who I am very much like. I would have considered taking desd name if it had been important to her or a hyphenated thing and we also want to have children and they will carry on the name. my daughter has her mothers last name and my name is her middle name. i would never look down my nose at those who have no wish to change last name this is just us and what is right for us

A name is personal. How one views it, what it's importance is belongs to the individual. There's no right/wrong thing here. What wouldn't be good is coercion or manipulation; the "If you love me you would" type of thing.

Now with that said my spouse took my name. We're both butch and in our relationship she is the dominant partner.

I didn't ask, want or expect her to take my name, not did I expect or want to take hers. On our 5 year anniversary she said she wanted to change her last name to mine because:
1. She didn't care for either parent (nor did they care for her).
2. The legal spelling of my last name is uniquely mine (long story).

I was surprised and glad for her. I didn't have a personal stake in the matter, but felt that if she's getting what she wants, then it's a good thing.

It's also a hoot that my Caucasian partner has an Asian last name. She's had a few interesting moments because of it.

OK how many butches are going to take the femmes name, if it'about sharing a name?

Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout

[QUOTE=Kobi;860805]

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?