I am not a scientist (obviously) but have been giving the subject of why people believe in religion, astrology and so forth much thought.

I wonder, in some cases, like for example astrology, psychic ability and so forth, if it is possible that somehow there are perfectly rational explanations? (science we don't know yet).

Could the planets have a pull on us like the moon might?

So many scientific discoveries have happened in our lifetimes alone that I have to think there are many completely rational explanations for things we might consider "magical thinking".

If they did, then this pull would be of a completely DIFFERENT kind of field (meaning one we have never detected before). The only field from the other planets that have ANY effect on us here on Earth is the electromagnetic field (light). The only other field that the planets have that would effect us here would be the gravitational field but because of how fields fall off with distance we are not significantly affected by the gravitational fields of EITHER of our two nearest planetary neighbors (Venus and Mars) and outside of the effect of Jupiter hoovering up objects as they traverse into the inner solar system, Jupiter has no effect on us. That means that this 'astrological field' (if you will) either has to be energy in some form that we cannot detect (but it's NOT dark energy that we can be certain of) or it does not obey the inverse square law. It's not electromagnetism (because we could detect it if it were, there's no part of the EMF spectrum that we cannot detect) and it can't be gravity (for the reason cited above).

This puts the burden of justification on the proponents of astrology to explain what kind of energy it is, to propose tests we could use to determine if this energy exists and whether or not it obeys the inverse square law (and if it doesn't why and how it breaks what appears to be a *fundamental* rule).

Here's the thing that I think is lost in a lot of science education taken at the high school and non-science major undergrad level: a universe with, say, psi powers looks very different than one without. If one is going to propose these powers, okay, but then one should be prepared for curious sorts to ask probing and difficult questions.

Because I'm more comfortable talking about how this works with various scientific issues (because there's no danger I'm going to step on someone's cherished beliefs and thus insult them) I'll use an example of the kind of questioning and curiosity I'm talking about. Let's take string theory.

String theory is a mathematically *beautiful* structure that seeks to explain, amongst other things, why the four forces have the strengths they do and what those four forces would look like if unified. I will admit that from the minute I became aware of string theory I was captivated by it. I would really LIKE for the universe to work this way. However, there are some non-trivial problems with the theory and after five years of reading everything I could find that was in support of string theory I heard on NPR's Talk of the Nation Science Friday an interview with someone who had been a prominent string theorist who wrote a book called "The Trouble with Physics" which argued that string theory was almost certainly wrong. I went out and bought that book and another book by a mathematician with an interest in the subject called "Not Even Wrong". I waded through both (they're very dense and the subject matter is extremely arcane) but after reading both of those and some various journal articles on the subject, came to the conclusion that string theory was unlikely to be true. While I still hold out SOME hope it might be rescued from its problems, I am dubious this can or will happen which means that no matter how much I might *want* the universe to work this way, it is vanishingly improbable that it *does* work that way.

It required me to ask some very deep and difficult questions and whenever there was resistance to question MY motivations for that resistance. However, the rules are the rules and the two biggest problems string theory has are not trivial. There are some 5 *million* possible permutations of string theory any of which might be true with no way to whittle that down to a manageable number. This means that string theory is not falsifiable as a practical matter and it may not be falsifiable even in principle. If it's only the former, then it's a matter of time but if it's the latter then no matter how beautiful string theory is, it isn't science. The second problem is allied to the first. String theory requires 9 MORE dimensions than our familiar 3+1 (time is its own dimension) which are curled up so small that they are not detectable. This goes back to the falsifiability issue.

The reason I bring this up is to illustrate how I think about these things and what scientific thinking looks like. I also bring it up to show that when I ask these questions about, say, astrology I am applying the SAME standard to that idea that I apply to ideas I actually DO believe might have something to them. I do so because it's only *fair* to do so. It would be unfair for me to have one standard for astrology and another for string theory and it would be terribly inconsistent to boot. To the best of my ability I want to be consistent and fair-minded and that means treating all kinds of claims about the universe as being on an equal footing and not privileging some kinds of claims above others just because some are labeled 'spiritual' and some scientific.

Cheers
Aj

My only suggestion is to investigate astrology. I could go on and on about it, but honestly? I really have no desire to, lol. It wouldn't be fair to turn this thread into science vs. metaphysics - since my original intent was to simply answer a question about what I thought about 2012.

Well, so that the thread doesn't die I'll bow out of it. Obviously, it's more entertaining to talk about, on the one hand, vague, non-specific events than it is to actually delve into the grounding issues of what might happen and why. I thought that good information about the science would crowd out bad information but that only works if people want good information which, clearly, they don't.

So enjoy the 23 month "the Mayans said the world will end!" party. On 22 Dec 2012, I'll be giggling my butt off and wondering how many people will have the courage to admit that 2012 was just another year.

Cheers
Aj

Everyone isn't going to care about the details. Details can be quite boorish. The web is vast and there's tons of information on it for those who want it though.

Details can be quite unmannered, rude and insensitive?

Maybe you mean boring?

As in: Detailed discussion on a thread topic can be boring? (to you)

:deepthoughts:

It's hard to imagine how the details of something that one believes controls or effects all aspects of life in a mystical sense would be boring to that person, especially in a thread about how those beliefs will spur an impending global transformation...

I choose to not sit here and write about astrology and the science behind it and bore myself (and others) to death. Yes, I meant boring.

And yes, I am bored now.

Well, if my roommate had any money, the idiot would be building a fall-out bunker, buying guns, and stocking up on food. It is funny. He gets his information off the internet, and when I tell him about a site that debunks most of his stupid crap, he says "You can't trust what you read on the internet!" WTF???

Hell, to me 2012 is the year I will be getting my BS finished. Go me.

Can anyone tell me who ascribed astrological characteristics to the planet Pluto after it was discovered in 1930?

I've looked on the internet and can not locate that info.

I really believe this should be in it's own thread, but... wth ...
 

Modern planets

Since the invention of the telescope, Western astrology has incorporated Uranus, Neptune, Ceres, Pluto and other bodies into its methodology. Indian and Chinese astrologies have tended to retain the ancient seven-planet system. Meanings have had to be assigned to them by modern astrologers, usually according to the major events which occurred in the world at the time of their discovery. As these astrologers are usually Western, the social and historical events they describe have an inevitable Western emphasis. Astrologers consider the 'extra-Saturnian' planets to be 'impersonal' or generational planets, meaning their effects are felt more across whole generations of society. Their effects in individuals depend upon how strongly they feature in that individual's birth-chart. There is also a great discussion going about what Ceres should rule in astrology. Some western astrologers hope that within a few years, astrological rulerships will be changed in order to include Ceres. The following are their characteristics as accepted by most astrologers.

To most modern Western astrologers, Pluto is the ruling planet of Scorpio. In Roman mythology Pluto is the god of the underworld and of wealth, hence the coin-and-chalice glyph. Pluto and its moon Charon form a unique pairing in the solar system because Charon is so massive relative to Pluto. This means that they revolve in a 'dumbbell' formation around a common point in space lying between them, permanently locked in a 'power struggle' for dominance.[13] This is symbolic of the role Pluto has come to represent astrologically. Pluto takes 248 years to orbit the sun, spending on average approximately 21 years (20.6) in each sign of the zodiac. However, Pluto's orbit is so eccentric that this can vary dramatically, from 25 years in Cancer (1913 - 1938) to a mere 12 years in Scorpio (1983 - 1995), when its orbit was actually closer to the sun than Neptune's.

Astrologically Pluto is called "the great renewer", and is considered to represent the part of a person that destroys in order to renew, through bringing buried, but intense, needs and drives to the surface and expressing them, even at the expense of the existing order. A commonly used keyword for Pluto is "transformation". It is associated with power and personal mastery and the need to co-operate and share with another, if each is not to be destroyed. Pluto governs big business and wealth, mining, surgery and detective work, and any enterprise which involves digging under the surface to bring the truth to light. Pluto is also associated with the day Tuesday along with Mars.

Pluto is also associated with extreme power and corruption; the discovery of Pluto in 1930 coincided with the rise of fascism and Stalinism in Europe, leading to the Second World War. It also coincided with the Great Depression and the major proliferation of organized crime in the United States.

Its entry into Cancer in 1913, the sign in which it was later discovered, coincided with the First World War. It is also associated with nuclear armament, which had its genesis in the research of the 1930s and 40s. Later on, it gave rise to the polarized nuclear stand off of the Cold War, with the mass consumer societies of the United States and other democracies facing the totalitarian state of the USSR. The discovery of Pluto also occurred just after the birth of modern psycho-analysis, when Freud and Jung began to explore the depths of the unconscious. In real life events and culture, Pluto has been a major astrological aspect.

In art, movements like Cubism and Surrealism began to deconstruct the 'normal' view of the world and reassemble it in new and sometimes disturbing ways. In medicine Pluto seems to be associated with regenerative forces in the body involving cell formation and the reproductive system. Pluto is considered by modern astrologers to be co-ruler of the 8th house with Mars. Many traditional astrologers do not use Pluto as a ruling planet, but do use the planet for interpretation and predictive work, obliquely making reference to projections of influences from higher to lower dimensional spaces.

OK I found it, it was Jeff Green who in 1985 dreamt of what astrologers now believe about Pluto, as explained to him in the dream by Yogananda.

From Eric Francis:

"He started reading charts, came to Seattle, and put up his "Free Charts" sign, which was popular. He did a lot of readings on the radio. One night he had a dream in Sanskrit, in which Yogananda gave him some really intense info about Pluto. He started writing. He lit candles on his desk, illuminating the first page, and called his then-girlfriend, so she could come and see the first page; that is how it all began. It was an extremely challenging task to complete the book, but he did it. Yogananda stuck around. A lot happened. It's all history. It is fair to say that no book of the last half century has had as much impact as Jeff's. (Pluto: The Evolutionary Journey of the Soul)"

So there it is.

Well, congrats on your BS (assuming that the Mayans are right, you'll have about six months to enjoy it LOL).

My wife and I sometimes talk about starting some kind of New Age consulting business. You see, she's got the whole "Celtic Earth-Mother" thing going on (red hair, curvy, I call her my own personal Flaming June) and I've got the whole dreadlocked black woman thing down and I can fake a passable Caribbean accent. With that schtick we could make money beyond our dreams of avarice!

I have a couple of people in my life who do the same thing as your roommate. On the one hand they'll say "I saw this on the Internet...." and then riff on some completely ludicrous idea and then, when they are pointed to a site where their sacred cow is well and truly debunked they'll respond "well, you can't believe everything you see on the Internet!" It boggles the mind.

Cheers
Aj

So there it's not.

It's no surprise how you are attempting to handle the topic.

Peace out.

It reminds me of all the fundamentalist ("bible believin') Christians I've talked to who have never even read the book that they believe with all their heart has come straight from the mouth of God.
I wonder if there is an inverse relationship between true believers and their own need for information about the things they believe. I'd love to see it studied...

For a small feee, I can give you an elixir that will make you feel and look 35.

Cheers
Aj

Truth in not partial false
 

dreadgeek

I, personally, do not find science boring...but what I have issue with is a scientists trying to make theory fact by agreement.

excerpt from dreadgeek 'This puts the burden of justification on the proponents of astrology to explain what kind of energy it is, to propose tests we could use to determine if this energy exists and whether or not it obeys the inverse square law (and if it doesn't why and how it breaks what appears to be a *fundamental* rule). '

I have the tenacity to believe that 'if ain't always true-meaning no exceptions-it ain't true'. To me this is 'truth' - that each person holds a portion of the truth emcompassing a merge from levels of understanding at the physical level (science), the mental level (change), the spiritual level (ominiscence). Incorporating all = truth, however dismissing a portion = theory. Each serves a invaluable reasoning for existence.

:freak: :huhlaugh:

Off topic but I tend to wander off alot...LOL
Is this pic with the cat an image of mouse in 'light' form intentional? or am I having a '60s flashback'?

2012......I will be 60 yrs old (June 24) and that's a number I cannot even understand.......laughin..........

It reminds me of a bumper sticker found all over NM during the Y2K hype:

Y2K is everyday in NM

Meaning: if all the hype had come true, nothing in NM would have changed........laughin....

I must admit I did go out to Point Reyes with a bunch of friends and 'harmonically converged' when we were supposed to do that to save the planet..........it was a great time hanging at the beach and doing a bit of meditation to the sound of the waves and the light of the moon.

It's the Solstice and I will be having a Solstice Celebration just like I do every year. It's a celebration of the return of the light.