Or when she lifts the suitcase out of the trunk wehn your back is turned, like it was heavy as a newspaper :heavyweight:

sneaking in under the cover of Pacific Daylight TIme ;)

i've experienced more attempts at perpetuating femme-hierarchy when getting to know less attractive and stupid butches.

my experience. me. only.

and to be totally fair--i'm SURE that their attractiveness fell from possibly average to *no way* once they began to offer their unsolicited and absurd insights on high-femme (which i don't think exists and they were sure entailed a demure smile, heels and stockings 24/7), relationships (i'm not a so-called 'natural' submissive because they were ill equipped for someone such as myself), and i could go on...

so, perhaps it's that i find intelligence *highly* sexy that i can't quite separate my disgust of the thoughts from the one doing the thinking--but i have found myself in these situations a few times and it's always presented to me in a way to try to knock me down to their size, like 'i'll fuck you but just so's you know...' trying so hard to mask their insecurity at sitting across from me:

oh, you're very attractive, if a little young... and perhaps not what i normally go for (as fucking IF) and i will do you, though you clearly lack real *experience* so you'd better hold on to your seat, little miss--and normally, i date high femmes--oh what are those? those are femmes who wear nylons and high heels, i have an ex who wore heels every day.... (wistful pause) and skirts--you know those tight skirts? ...yes, that's it--pencil skirt.... (implying that my totally cute outfit isn't drag-enough for the pizza place/diner/hole in the wall) wait. where are you going?"

see? not attractive + stupid = not getting any.

on the other hand--

i ADORE doing the 'femme' stuff with another femme--i don't feel competitive, i feel supported and love to give support.

i am grateful that i have a local friend who i met (through mack!), and we can discuss the real stuff as well as get absolutely stupid in 'bath and body' saying, 'oh HONEYYYY look at this new DOUCHE!!!' really loud. (really, poor tiger!)

and about the butch that creates this femme-continuum/perpetuates the myth of high vs. low femme (can i be teenage slut femme??) --i've never felt so ERASED. and not accidentally, not the way society sees everything in M or f... more so an attempt to deliberately erase my *femme* entirely.

lolz
 

ha! i seriously doubt that's your *first date* style! nice try!!

In my mind, when someone says 'high femme', for some reason, i think of a glamorous woman from an old movie, from the 40's maybe, wearing satin and complicated hosiery, making smart and quippy conversation. Maybe with finger waves in her hair? It's a nice image. :) Sorry, I know this is a bit of a random musing on the topic...

LOL. The "glitter and unicorns" got me. Yes, i have seen that. And worse.

i am misunderstanding. What i have seen is that some femmes have dated a male-ID'd butch, wanting male-ID, not viewing them as female, and then when it was over, cause they were mad at the butches, used female pronouns to disrespect them.

Are you serious? People use glitter cock as a way of calling someone less than in some way? OMG. lol. Let me tell you, i have done some damage with those glitter cocks (hand held). ;)

How come we can't have a discussion about Femmes without talking about Butches?

i had the same thought, but wtf? i also think part of the discussion was to what degree is this hierarchy, if there is one, reinforced by butches and how do we react to it when it is.

i personally have not gotten much of that from butches. And even not a huge amt from femmes. i don't think it's as big of a deal for us -- the hierarchy.

What do you mean you don't do "heels and stockings 24/7"???

http://leighsinger.files.wordpress.c...mme_fatale.jpg

I think my personal favorite one is..

A particular hand movement I used while fucking someone was *Butch*

*Blink*

gee I didn't know that being concerned about possibly riping someone while getting my hand into them was based on gender id..

silly femme, serious fucking is for butches.. (sarcasm intended)

Duh. Femmes are supposed to fuck as though they are dialing the phone with wet fingernails.

I love to participate in cunnulingus, I do, I have heard from my peers this makes me not so femme..

I say the hell with that..:)

oh and yes I said cunnulingus and no I have no gender preference when it comes down to it..

:bandana:<cleaning gear on in case

When I think of High Femme, it involves Mary Jane and Cookies. :)

I don't even know ANY women who wear nylons and pencil skirts 24/7. Zero.
It cracks me up when someone says they are looking for a Femme like that, cause that search is going to lead to dissapointing results!

Wait...i wear mary janes and like cookies....omg, i'm a high femme?! Who knew?? :blink:

:jester: :nerd:

Thinking of those femmes missing out. Unless this is a true sexual boundary (one just can't imagine doing it), it's amazing to me that anyone would give up all this good stuff up for no better reason than it's not femme????

How sadly self-punishing of someone not to try out something to see if they really like it, but to obey some internalized sexist rule. Boy, that's a case where our gender categories sure aren't liberating. What's next, femme purdah?

Me too!

I think it hurts me the most when the shock & awe comes from other Femmes. I tend to keep quiet during gatherings when the convo turns to sexual stuff. Which is kind of sad.

Me too and Mee too.

Exept sometimes I just like to spurt out exactly what all I like to do in bed and watch the green foam ooze from their ears. :sadangel:

This made me crack up. Green foam even. teehee

Martina I want to address what you said I just need time to chew on it for a bit.. The reason being is there are folks out there who do not participate in this particular sexual activity due to boundaries their partners have set and such.



On another note..

Being a femme who enjoys having her cock sucked, has brought the *value* of my femme into questions by both gender spectrums....

:wtf:

This is a great discussion. I'm relatively newly out- about 3 years- so perhaps my perspective just stems from inexperience. I can honestly say, though, that I've never personally been made to feel inferior, or "not femme enough" by another femme, not once. The femmes I've met have been unfailingly gracious, welcoming me to the club :)

Online, I suppose I have seen a fair amount 'ewwww'-ing going on about any sort of sexual interest, on the part of either butches or femmes, that doesn't quite adhere to gender stereotypes. Perhaps, though, this is improving over time? I'm not certain of it, but I get the sense that maybe this was a bit more common a few years ago than it is today, thank goodness- probably thanks to folks' speaking up about it in threads like this.

cunnilingus -- just because it sounds like a disease doesn't mean it is or will give you one
 

Hello!

Great thread (and yes, I actually did thread stalk someone here.. and found myself actually LEARNING something!). I just want to put in my experience, not as a femme, but as a transguy who knows and has loved many femmes, both as friends and as lovers..

I will admit that I still have a pretty binary brain when it comes to femmes and butches.. And I am going to use the term "butches" here, just because I don't want to have to type: butches/Stones/TG identified/transgender/transsexual people every other line.. That being said :)

When I first learned the term "butch" and "femme", I was 18 and I was in a chat room.. There were stereotypes all around and I was learned by other butches on how to treat a femme.. I was shown how a femme *should* behave and act and dress.. I ate it up and ran with it.. 14 years later, I am unlearning a good bit.. lol Not all of it, for sure, I mean, your partner should be shown respect, always.. But do I have to open the door everytime? No, not if it means it turns into a lil awkward moment when both of you are reaching for the door like it's a race.. lol This has happened..

I can't relate to femme invisablity, but I can relate to being a transguy and feeling like I am not accepted in the queer realm.. I actually have to out myself at times, which is interesting, to say the least.. I can also relate to being one of those butches that assumed that certain things are true about a woman because she is femme.. Guilty.

I was in a situation not too long ago where a femme mentioned using a strap on.. Not on me, per se, but just in general, and allll kinds of crap came up for me. Since that time, I have had a lot of time to think about this reaction.. Would it be diffrent if it were just a one night hook-up? Would it change if I were in a relationship with this woman? Why?

I don't have the answers for that, but I am going to try in the future to keep that experience and some of the things said in this thread in mind.. Thank you to those that have posted, I have enjoyed reading and will continue to quietly stalk this thread.. Thank you :)

-Tony

One of the most offensive things for me(and it sounds like many other femmes in here too) is the long definitions of "what a femme is." Usually it's followed by the assessment of me as a femme.

Count me in on that support! How the hell did stuff like any sexual act is the province of gender get started, anyway!!! FeFruckSake... pun, intended!

OK, I'll shut-up and listen!
:popcorn:

I don't know anyone in person who has the green foam reaction :)

I do remember my talking to a close straight woman friend about my first experience strapping.

I was like, "OMG I cannot believe I didn't do that sooner, and I was so stressed about it, and then it was so natural and I had access to this part of myself I never knew existed and to a part of her that was so unbelievable and I just felt so *given to* in that moment."

My friend just said she never imagined that the f*cker would feel *given to* and that surprised her. She said as a f*ckee-only, she feels like she's stealing all the energy. :)

I don't really hang out with prudes though - maybe green foam is a biproduct of prudery? I talked to a femme friend just the other day about it, and even though her preferences don't run the same gamut mine do, she was charming and funny and insightful and fully accepting when the conversation turned for a few moments to sex.

i have to admit i buy into some "femme roles" as well as some "butch roles",
but oral sex has never been one of them! i mean, hello!!

What's gender/personal identity got to do with enjoying any form of sex?

i will admit that i personally have little experience with cunnulingus, mainly because the majority of my partners have been stone. But....i'm um....beginning to expand my horizons with Daddy, and omg the thought just sends me!! :drool: and i cannot believe i am admitting this for the world to see! i'm a prude, really. :bolt:

:)
For the record, I usually don't choose to hang out with prudes either, but when forced to...why not shock them?

None of my staright friends are prudes just people we sometimes meeet in the Queer community. And the people to whom I was refering would not see themselves as prudes, just very set in their gender stereotype ideas.

I feel somehow it is my duty to bust up some Femme stereotypes. :thumbsup:

you do an excellent job of representing. :)

I realized I have rather prudish feelings when I encounter Christian fundamentalism. I had a lady tell me the other day that she feels sorry for anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus because god is going to torture us for 7 years before we burn in hell. And then last night in class some guy told me he was going to pray for me because I am not a Christian and I just got up and moved. So I guess I'm easily shocked in that way and kind of a prude in a way.

Ummm, I don't think you are a prude, I think they are crazy. and, if we are dead and don't have a body how are we going to feel the torture and flames?

ehhhhhh.

Another thread?

yes - sorry my ADHD got the better of me. /derail

I saw the most beautiful femme today at the gas station. She was dressed up and well coifed and she actually was wearing a great pair of heels. She looked a little like duchess and when I saw her behind me in line, I thought, damn I wish I looked that good in the morning. She was radiating this sort of peace and power. I didn't know she was a femme until her gf came around the corner and it became obvious from their conversation.

Not only do I wish I were less invisible to queers, I wish other femmes were more visible to me. I need the femme-dar app installed in my brain.

I wanna say there's a gaydar app on the iPhone but I think I read somebody has already been gaybashed through it.

If I may ask, do you think that the association of "femme" is done purely based on looks, very similar to butches based on how "macho" they are?



Side comment: Maybe the idea that one shouldn't be judging a book by its cover has been pretty much tossed out by the community in a general sense?

I'm not even gonna apologize for being wordy...
 

Hi everyone :rrose:

I've been reading this thread since it started and was all ready to post...and then Linus tossed this one in there...

Now, I know this was about mainstream media and all of that public perception stuff, but it also got me thinking...and I've been chewing on it ever since. I'm one of those who took a very long time to figure myself out...for a variety of reasons I won't even begin to go into here. What I do know is that when I finally discovered the butch-femme community it clicked and felt right to me in a way that neither the straight community or the andro-lesbian community did.

I know I'm femme. It's when I start trying to explain and define it that I get into rough ground...and Linus' post is a part of that.

I'm naturally pretty feminine, and am comfortable with that. I wear skirts and dresses, like my nails manicured and prefer kitten heels to pretty much anything else. I like to cook, love to bake, am squeamish, giggle...pretty cliched stuff. However, I'm also stubborn, headstrong, extremely independent and capable. I have an advanced degree, a professional job, and run my own life. I don't need anyone to take care of me...never have since the age of about 14. Anyone who tries to tell me how to think will get an earful...and then some.

So am I "feminine" in the traditional sense? In some ways, yes. In others, not even close. Maybe what I am is not so much feminine as feminist...defining my own femaleness on my own terms.

So then the lesbian part of Linus' question...am I? Well, yea...based on the fact that I'm in a relationship with and love a woman...yes. However, the woman I love is butch... and I'm not attracted at all to feminine or androgynous women. So...what does this all mean?

Am I femme because I'm attracted to butches? That can't be it...I see plenty of femmes who are attracted to other femmes. And if I'm not in a relationship with a butch it isn't like my identity vanishes either. I can be a celibate femme, a femme who loves other femmes, a femme who loves butches....all of those are still femme...even if they aren't my style of being femme.

All of these are spinning around in my head right now....feminine, feminist, femme...and I don't know where the lines are for me. In many ways, I wear the label "femme" as a way to help others know me, at least a little, before they know me for real...as my own unique self. I'm left feeling that my screen name describes it better than my femme label....because when it all boils down to what's really true and important...I'm just Jo.

Do you think that the labeling is more pronounced in the online community? I say this because usually if you put a gaggle of femmes together, our femme-ness becomes blinding. You can see it from space. Dress, makeup etc...doesn't seem to matter.