Corkey who are you arguing with? Really this is quite tiresome.

Sorry to be away so long but wanted to make sure I followed up on this...

I'm glad to hear no one was really "pissed". :) However, there was definitely some heat in here as well as some not-so-kind exchanges.

I'm glad to see things have gotten back on a positive track; lots of us are.

All we ask is that everyone continue to discuss very personal and important issues such as identities with respect, compassion, and understanding.

Thinker (moderating)

Moving on.. I find it really sad that someone who has been involved with this conversation from the beginning has to unsubscribe from it...

Hey BullDog...

Perhaps a conversation like this is best held in private. I'm asking that you either do that or just let it go.

This conversation is important to a lot of people, and we'd all like to see it stay focused and positive. Please contact me via PM if you have any questions or anything you'd like to address.

Thinker (moderating)

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.

the two of you are both saying exactly the same thing Corky there's no argument. I think there's just misfiring. :)

Bulldog, I asked you to address this via PM...which we have done.....so I do not see the need to post here as well.

Let's get the thread discussion back on track, please.

Thinker (moderating)

Exactly, there isn't.

oops, sorry thinker. just caught up.

Bully take it from me I have no reason to argue with you. Reread.

Ixnay, dudes, before you get spanked. *pointy finger behind hand to Dad*

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address :p I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

I get what you are saying here, Ender, and if our society were different there would be no 'need' to label anyone anything other than human. However, b/c labels can convey important information about us that we want others to know, I will continue to call myself a transman, rather than simply man. I want others to know that I am firmly rooted in the LGBT community and, further, that there is no shame or embarrassment (and nothing inherently wrong, except in the dysphoric sense) in being born biologically female.

You have a remarkable way of "being" and expressing yourself. I was nowhere near this evolved at 25, dude. Seriously. I've enjoyed reading you here.

I appreciate you explaining this because it helps me more fully understand when male ID'd folks say they have no plans, no need to transition. I can get that now. So thank you.

I will also say that I wish you well in all that you are doing to get to where you want to be physically......wherever that may be for you. Should you end up in a new "suit" someday, I believe you really will love it and know a peace unimaginable.

Thanks again, young man.

Thinker (site member)

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

LOL.. I'm a bozo...I mean't HB to be Met... sorry, I'm old!

Ok, even though I said I got your post that I referenced, I think I misinterpreted it and thought I understood when I didn't fully. For some reason I wasn't thinking ritualistic in the same sense as you've described it here. That makes more sense to me when you put it that way, and I think I can somewhat agree on some level. I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement. I'm finding myself more inclined to seeing it like a coming of age ceremony like in you're first example, but I think I'm stuck on thinking one can have only one such ceremony. Then again, looking at my life I can already think of two (one at 13 and one which seemed to be ongoing between the ages of 19 and 23)...and now I'm arguing with myself lol I think I'll mull it over and come back later because I have something else to say, but I'm not quite sure what it is yet.

Thanks to all who've posted in response.

Woman and female are two completely different things... in terms of meaning, etymological heritage, and values... I am female. I do not identify as woman. I strongly admire those females who DO identify as woman. Gender identity is a rainbow and not dualistic as our language binds us to... When we cannot find the words to define our grey area... then these types of struggles happen. The fact is... butch is not necessarily woman. It's not even necessarily female (which is what I think you were saying) Oh.. and I have seen plenty of non-butch men... man and butch is really not all that redundant...


Am jumping in and just thought I would add a thought or two...

lol! well, in that we are very much alike!!

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on. Therefore - though a transguy, being born with female genitals, I will not deny I am physically female. I can never, by way of taking testosterone or the operations I had to alter my body to that which felt comfortable, be a biological male. Its much easier to accept that, since there is nothing more I can do about it.
I consider myself male in essence, i.e. I feel/dress/behave in a male fashion, though there are female characteristics, as there are with any bio male. Therefore, I accept myself, as I am and live as male - easier now I look masculine - if anyone finds out I was born female, i have no problem with them knowing and am happy to answer any questions they may have.

When I thought I was butch lesbian, i did have a problem - it felt very wrong - so my take on this question, is that one should go with what's right for them - it can take time, sometimes a lifetime to discover what that is...............and its often a painful journey

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

Liam, that first sentence isn't very kind or welcoming. Please make an effort to keep your comments positive. If you have any questions, you are welcome to write via PM.

Thank you.

Thinker (moderating)

I think sexuality and gender are different - and, depending on your outlook, everything we are is an illusion brought about by our own minds/energy - but again thats a matter of personal belief............

.................yes i know that -and 4 people thanked me for my post (thankyou) no wonder you call yourself "Mr crankypants" - lol!

The term hermaphrodite is a stigmatizing and misleading term, it implies that a person is both male and female, which is impossible physiologically. One can possess parts of what is consider male or female, but one is neither completely male or female. It is an offensive word to the intersexed.

City knows this and was correcting Jaques. :)

ETA: I want to publicly thank Liam for his kindness to me, you rawk buddy!

I realise this, and I was hoping to educate others.

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but i am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration.

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duck.

I do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.

Yes, I realize that.