"Neil Patrick Harris Makes Tranny Joke on Live with Kelly"
 

Neil Patrick Harris Apologizes for 'Live!' Tranny-Wreck
 

Neil Patrick Harris Apologizes for 'Live!' Tranny-Wreck

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...96637320111202

Don't really care if he apologised or not, personally. If he and GLAAD think the only problem with what he said was his use of the word "tranny" then we've got a problem. The entire joke itself, even if he hadn't used the slur, would have been just as offensive without it.

Excellent point!

I couldn't quite figure out what it was about the whole thing that bothered me. I knew it wasn't his use of the word "tranny". While I comprehend the offensiveness of the term and respect the hell out of the fact that it *is* offensive to so many, I'm not bothered by it personally. So I knew it wasn't that...

But your post cleared it up for me somehow.

If a guy spoke in an uncommonly (uncommon for that individual) soft manner......just came out that way......and said, "I've never sounded more like a fag/gay man/whatever in my life," it would be offensive primarily because of a very tired, negative stereotype.

Or if a woman surprised herself by moving something heavy out of the way and said, "I've never felt more like a dyke/lesbian/whatever in my life," it would also be offensive.......again.......tired, negative stereotype.

So, for me, it was the notion that there is a "way" a transsexual/tranny/whatever sounds. ...that one can distort his/her voice and "sound like a tranny" is the disturbing and offensive part of it......again, for me.

If he had of said transgendered, transsexual, crossdresser or whatever else that came to his mind to describe people like us people still would have gotten offended. He was referring to Buffalo Bill not transgendered people as a whole. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would go around trying to kill a transgendered person out of hate. I really don't think he realized that he was offending people or what he was saying. It's like people are sitting back and waiting for somebody to say something offensive so they can be offended. Where does it fucking end?

I'm still pissed off about the people chopping up that transgendered woman in Detroit. Some little gay boy saying the word tranny doesn't bother me at all.

So anything short of chopping us up into pieces isn't fucking transphobia now? Sorry, but that's complete bullshit.

I don't care who he was referring to. I know he was referring to Buffalo Bill. It stated that in the initial article. I don't care if he was referring to one trans person/a representation of a trans person or all of us, it's the same fucking thing and being gay does not give him a free pass to make "jokes" about trans people and their voices, nor throw around slurs. There are enough self-entitled white celebrity gay guys out there thinking it's perfectly fine to do it, to write an entire fucking book about.

"If he had of said transgendered, transsexual, crossdresser or whatever else that came to his mind to describe people like us people still would have gotten offended."

That's exactly what I was just said in the post you replied to. The entire statement suggests that there is something "weird" or "funny" about trans people's voices, whether that person is a movie representation (and the movie representation itself is transphobic for that matter) or a real person. Many trans people go through transition feeling self-conscious about their voices. The number of times I've heard people refer to the voices of transguys as "chipmunk voices" or make what they see as "funny imitations" of what they think transwomen sound like is huge. It's something that happens fairly frequently only to get a laugh.

Nobody is fucking sitting around waiting to be offended. The problem is that the societies we live in still think trans people are fair game for jokes. People need to know why those jokes are offensive. It's not just slurs, it's the entire sentiment behind that joke, and his apology suggests that he doesn't get that at all.

I'm sick of people defending celebrities who seem entirely unaware of the negative effects of their "funny jokes" and "opinions."

I just wanted to come back to the thread and apologies that I came off as really pissed off in my last response. Lately the combination of things going on in my life right now just really have me on "attack mode" for a lot of things that I find completely unjust.

I did mean everything I said in that last post, but I think I also came off as a bit of an ass in some of the language I used and for that I'm sorry. Honestly, it's just really frustrating to have this kind of shit everywhere not only in your own life, but it seems more and more in the newspapers these days as well make it like a fairly strong connection to RL and the news. I know the world won't change in a day, but it sucks to have to fight the same battle over and over again.

I don't get it either. Hell I don't get the problem with 'tranny' but then I live in the Bay Area and hear transfolks call themselves 'tranny' all the time.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T. Would folks be upset if a transman had made the same joke?

There are ways of saying the same thing in an offensive way or in a non-offensive way. I did not see this as offensive in the way he said it....but offense is in the eye of the beholder.

Well, I don't think he meant anything by it, but it is less than sensitive to the trans people out there who do take offense to the word, and there are plenty of them. I personally don't like the word 'tranny' because it does get used by non-trans people in derogatory ways. If some trans people want to use it as a self-descriptor, that's fine and their right to do so. But I think it would be great if more people, especially in the LGBT community, were aware that it does have that very negative connotation for many transfolks.

I watched the video and it had zero effect on me. I didn't feel offended. IMO, Neil was just making a joke. Yeah, it was at the expense of trans but I know I've sounded pretty funny. It's not a bad thing. If I can't laugh at myself then I'm gonna spend a lot of time being pissed and self-conscious.

It's a pain in the ass when I can't get a loan because the dude on the phone doesn't believe my voice matches up with the rest of my credit info (I'm still listed as female). That really sucked. I have credit with discover. I tried to get a personal loan through them over the phone. I got a letter a few days after I applied saying they could not verify my id. WTF. I just laughed. Obviously, I didn't need the money.

Exactly, for me personally it's a waste of energy. There will always be someone that doesn't understand or that wants to hate for the sake of being hateful. If I sat around getting offended by every little thing someone said I would live a sad existence. There is a huge difference between someone being right out hateful and someone making a joke. Either way fuck em. I'm not going to let them bring me to their level.

I agree. I would have been offended if he had used some derogative descriptor like "I sound like a trannie freak. Now no one will ever take me seriously. "

well said and very true.

I'm sorry, I'm just really surprised by comments like this and others about it being "so easy to offend people these days." It just sounds a lot like what right wingers say when anyone tries to stick up for the rights of marginalized people. Edit, I also want to mention that it has nothing to do with us being "more easily offended" than in the past. It's that today our rights have extended to a degree where we can even have a voice. In the past, trans people were not exactly thrilled by the treatment and "jokes" against our community. There are many transwomen especially who write about their experiences in the 60s and 70s. But back then, they didn't have the rights nor the voice to ever challenge it through any medium that would reach the mainstream. Nobody would have cared.

As far as the comments about it being "just a joke" and him "not meaning it," I also find that a little surprising to hear to say the least. Those kinds of defenses are also used to defend misogynist jokes. Often when men make sexist jokes against women they claim it to be "just a joke" and not to "mean anything by it." Same with those who claim its "just a joke" when they make homophobic jokes. Often joking about a group that is less privileged than you are emphasises that privilege.

I remember there was a topic awhile ago, maybe a year or more, about a comedy skit about lesbian "cougars." At the time I remember taking the stance that it was satiric. While I still think that it partially was satiric, I've now certainly changed my perspective as far as the misogyny and homophobia present in that "comedy." I'm seeing something similar here.

Transphobia, sexism, homophobia etc. in our society does not always take on a violent form, or a form where the perpetrator claims any direct ill will against the target group. Not everyone who is transphobic goes out and tries to physically harm trans people. I've seen many comments by cis people express disgust when they hear about the murder or assault of a transwoman, however, they still express that "even those these people are ill/deviants/lifestyle choice etc. etc. they don't deserve to be beaten." It's the same "hate the sin not the sinner" bullshit that has very damaging repercussions when it comes to how trans people are treated in every day life, outside of physical violence.

In our society transphobia, misogyny and homophobia are so ingrained in our ideals that people often don't even recognise it in themselves, and believe certain jokes and comments to be socially acceptable simply because they're the norm. I see jokes against trans people and other marginalised people as something serious, and especially when its performed by those who hold more social privilege.

I want to clarify again, as I have in the past in this thread and elsewhere, that I don't care if a trans person uses the word "tranny" as a personal identifier, just the way I don't care if a gay man identifies himself as a "fag." I do have a problem when cis people start calling trans people "trannies." It is an entirely different ball game. If a trans person assumed all trans people identified as "trannies" I would correct them. If a cis person made the same assumption I would correct them, but even more I would be weary that they even felt entitled enough to use that word to refer to trans people. Same with the word "fag" and other such terms.

As far as if I would be offended if a trans person had made the joke...yes I certainly would be. Being trans doesn't exempt you from being transphobic or having internalised transphobia, just the way being queer doesn't exempt you from being homophobic and having internalised homophobia. I've definitely witnessed a lot of internalised transphobia and self-hatred coming from trans people, and it's not something I support or see as conducive to establishing trans rights and respect in society. I'd also add that this observation is a big part of what motivated me to try to find trans communities that are more trans-positive, rather than always thinking others have the right to walk all over us and that we don't have the right to say anything about it.

This is from my previous post and was not answered by folks who were offended. I really am trying to understand this and the reason I don't is in the question.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T.

and this idea of being really careful with words so as to not offend anyone is an impossible task.....and for some folks probably contributes to silencing out of fear of offending when there is no intention of offense....I frankly get tired of trying to find different ways to say something that is simple and straightforward and in the process garbling what I am trying to say......

and I still don't understand how the comment/joke was transphobic..........it's a joke about a voice change.....

You have every right to feel offended by someone's behavior. It's your feelings, man.

For me, it's all about picking my battles. In comparison to other stuff, this seems pretty small. My .02 cents.

First of all, I find the use of the word "silencing" here is exactly what happens when that term is thrown around when a person tries to explain why these jokes have negative consequences for the way trans people are perceived and treated in public. Why is it "silencing" to ask people to refrain from making jokes that make fun of trans people's voices? Is it silencing to call men out for making jokes about their wives and girlfriends by making "imitative" high-pitched voices that are meant to sound "naggy"/fit in with the typical misogynist stereotypes? Is it silencing to call out a person who imitates the stereotypical "gay" voice, as derogatory towards gay men?

And the topic of voices and making fun of them is quite interesting. I don't think I've often heard a comedian making fun of a white, straight cis man's voice. Supposedly imitating women's voices is "funny" to many men, so that they can commiserate with one another about all the "horrid" things their wives apparently say and do. Imitating the stereotypical "gay" voice is apparently quite "funny" as well to a mainstream audience. As is supposedly imitating the voices of trans people, and transwomen in particular. There have been enough skits on Saturday Night Live and other such "funny" shows displaying exactly those situations. Notice how it's always "funny" to make fun of those who have less privilege in society. No, perhaps not "always." There are always exceptions. But by and large, that's the way things are. I find that troubling. It assumes a "normal" way of being that sets up certain people as the standard, while others are "funny" or "weird" or worthy of a laugh.

I also fail to see how such a joke is productive, and why the right to tell an offensive joke trumps the right of the person to speak out against it. Lately I feel like I'm seeing the same pattern. Someone mentions something as transphobic and people claim like it's "silencing" for the trans person to even mention it. People making comments about how "everything is transphobic these days," sounds a lot like how certain people talk about how "everything is racist these days" or "everything is sexist these days," and seems to call for a throw back to some kind of Archie Bunker view of the world when "men were men, and women were women" and so on and so forth.

Has it crossed people's minds that we have traditional engrained social values that are inherently transphobic? That there is a heck of a lot in our society that is subconsciously cissexist? That some trans people call out transphobia often because it actually is present in many ways that are socially ingrained and normalised? In the same way that our society possesses underlying sexist perceptions and values that are not automatically deemed sexist because they are so common place?

Does this mean that trans people who find these kinds of jokes offensive should just shut up and let the people who make these jokes continue to think that it's ok to do so? That there are no negative repercussions?

As far as the "voice cracking," I fail to see how that has anything to do with the story at hand. The actor's voice did not sound as though it was "cracking," he'd just inhaled helium, which generally heightens and distorts the voice in what is popular perceived as a "cartoonish" way. It's generally something people do that they think is comical. To compare the comedic "helium voice" to "sounding like a tranny" then implies that there is also something "funny" about the voices of trans people. That there is a "trans voice" to begin with. As I mentioned before, it's not exactly unknown for people to joke about the voices of transmen (aka the whole "chipmunk voice" jokes) and transwomen. To try to normalise such jokes and suggesting that it is even comparable to "oh well, people make fun of teenaged boys' cracking voices" is denying the fact that trans people are frequently the brunt of jokes. Teenaged boys are not. There are "tranny jokes," not "teenaged boy jokes." Nobody inhales helium and compares themselves to a teenaged boy. Trans people are nowhere near on par with teenaged boys as far as social acceptance, normalisation and privilege.

thanks Ender.........we will have to agree to disagree on the subject....

There is a trans comedian named Ian Harvey who makes fun of his voice. I've heard him joke about sounding like a gay man on some talk shows and a promo.

Neil Patrick Harris portrays a sexist, straight, asshole on a top rated prime time tv sitcom. A lot of what he says on that show makes me clutch my pearls. The straight world adores him on that show. Our kids watch it and all their friends watch it and love the show and him. His joke helps support creating a culture of uncertainty when it comes to transitioning just like many of the jokes from his show are at the expense of women and people he values less than, once again supporting sexist oppressive culture.

Predicting how low my voice will get when i go on testosterone will be luck and genetics. It is only gonna deepen so much no matter how much T i take. I know it will eventually settle in to a different range but there is no guarantee my final result will be a deep enough range to pass or to relieve voice dysphoria anxiety. T causes thickening of the thyroid cartiledge in the neck. This is an irreversible change i will be taking on with a result i may or may not be happy with. All this knowledge i sit with has in the past caused me fear and anxiety.

Obviously i am not a teenage boy, the physiology and everything is just different. My everything in the throat area is not as flexible for growth, scarring and tearing because that is what is going to happen. Just like the cartiledge in the rest of my body will do as I work out this late in life to gain muscle mass. Lots of irreversible damages will be caused with sometimes often life affecting consequences fucking around with our bodies to become who we are. 10 years ago a doctor told me that i wouldn't need a hysterectomy while taking T. Now I am told that is not true that T can break down the cervix, atrophy i guess, developing a need for a preventative surgery orrrrrrrr i can just wait for it to become a life threatening situation and take it from there.

Where I live, I have seen a gay man belittle his lover by calling her a fucking tranny when he was mad at her. It is something that happens all the time. I have heard straight men and women refer to transgender women as tranny freaks. If I witness it used hatefully I am probably gonna get angry. If I hear it used by my community I am probably gonna say something depending on who is claiming it. What I am not gonna do is lighten up over it. It is wrong for certain people to claim or use the word tranny. Just like it would be wrong for me to claim and use the word lesbo.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...ef=transgender and yet another example of excessive police force. I can understand giving a ticket or whatever for public drunkness (if that's valid on federal land. I know in Canada there isn't any federal mandated drinking laws and federal land is covered by federal law only). But tasing?

Appeals court panel rules for Ga. trans woman in job discrimination case
 

Appeals court panel rules for Ga. trans woman in job discrimination case...

texas-macys employee fired for allegedly violating stores lgbt policy
 

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business...s-lgbt-policy/

Check out the former employee's attitude. She claims trans is against her religion and that's why she wouldn't let the teenager use the women's dressing room. She followed her around the store because she knew "he was a man" and "h"e wasn't supposed to be shopping for women's clothing.

WOW.

I am really glad that Macy's fired her. That is impressive. Right on Macy's!!

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/12/glen...d_in_georg.php


More than a coincidence.

Interesting

New Show...(GLADD and HRC's Response/Call to Action)
 

That was assult, with a weapon, to my mind. Nor did I see any provocation offered by that person, even though the video doesn't show the whole encounter. I hope that those officers are sent to prison, where they belong.

The Advocate:
 

Has anyone heard more about this transwoman's arrest, and what is happening to her now, and her lawsuits?

The above question is for woman mentioned in this link: http://news.advocate.com/post/128941...ess-dmv-fiasco

I haven't heard anything about her since November. Even a google search didn't really turn up anything about her since November, and haven't heard of any talk about her elsewhere.

I also wanted to make a separate post to briefly come back to the previous discussion of Neil Patrick Harris and his comments. I'm sure by now people will be rolling their eyes, but his comments are really the tip of a greater iceberg. That people think his comments were limited to a certain character or certain people within the transgender spectrum is something that I still feel denies even general awareness of transphobia in the film industry, and how even representations that transpeople view as inaccurate continue to play off general public anxiety. In that sense, not only are the issues I mentioned before important, but also the cinematic tradition he was catering to...which is what leads to the greater issue of representation.

I ran across these links recently, thought of this thread and thought I'd come share them. They discuss the frequent use of transgender (or, as far as their contemporary terminology, "transvestite" or "transsexual") villains in horror films (or villains in general), including popular films like Psycho and Silence of the Lambs:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/film-quotations.html

http://www.glaad.org/2008/10/23/nega...-film-explored

http://www.horroryearbook.com/544026...-killer-movies

Why I'm Not Saying "Tr*nny" And I'd Like It If You Guys Didn't Either, Please.
 

by STEPHEN IRA on JANUARY 23, 2012





http://www.originalplumbing.com/2012...either-please/



Trans brothers, dear dear dear men, whom I respect and look up to and adore, allow me to quote noted gender theorist Inigo Montoya:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I’m writing this because there’s been tons of talk about this slur recently. Trans men, some of them high profile, using tr*nny, trans women calling them on it, trans men demanding that they have a right to say it, et cetera. So before I start the serious stuff, I want to say that I’m not who you should listen to. This is really a trans women’s issue. You should listen to trans women. But they are already talking, and from your reactions, it’s clear we need to talk about this. From one trans guy to a bunch of others.

I’m not mad, guys. Well, ok, I’m a little mad. But mostly I just want to help fix this. We’ve made some bad mistakes. I used to use this word too, and I own that. I fucked up. We fucked up. Now let’s work to make this better.

Tr*nny is a slur. I think we’ve all agreed on that. Diverse sources, from Julia Serano to Kelly Osbourne, all agree. But for whom is it a slur? We know what image is summoned when we hear n*gger–a Black body. When we hear fag–a queer male body. When we hear d*ke–a queer female body. These words evoke certain identities. There are clear images associated with them. Fags are effeminate. D*kes are too masculine to be proper women. What clear image is evoked by tr*nny?

You know as well as I do: it’s the image of a trans woman. A “male” body, or rather, a body doctors would assign as male, in women’s clothing. A person attempting–and always failing, in these images–to be female. That’s what the image has historically been, and with only a few tiny changes, that’s what the image is now.

Whenever I have this debate, I suggest people google “tr*nny.” I stand by that suggestion. Click over the image tab and you’ll see trans women and drag queens galore, a few car parts, and fabulously enough, a picture of Kate Bornstein with a photoshopped mermaid’s tail, but almost never a trans man. When you do see trans men online associated with the slur, they’re almost always calling themselves tr*nnies. They’re not having the word pinned on them by cis people. This distinction is excruciatingly important.

The fact that cis people don’t call trans men tr*nnies very often illuminates two important things about trans male experience: the degree to which are and have been invisible, and what a weird place we stand in as female-assigned men in a patriarchal world.

The invisibility is a big part of what’s scary about being a trans man. We’re so unspeakable that there isn’t even a common word used to degrade exclusively us. When we look into history for gender variant people, we see trans women, and we see this word used against them. We see few trans men, and just like those historical trans men are mostly invisible, so are the structures of oppression used to keep them down.

Reclaiming tr*nny feels like a way to have a history. But that word was never our history. It feels like a way to name and confront those invisible oppressive structures. But it doesn’t do that work, because while the structures that oppress trans women have many elements in common with the ones that oppress us, they’re not the exact same ones.

That’s because, like I said, trans men are in such a weird position in relation to patriarchy. To the patriarchal eye, we seem to following the sexist imperative that being a man is better than being a woman, which of course the patriarchy is all for. But we’re doing it by violating another central patriarchal imperative: that people with vaginas are women.

So we move through this sexist world in a peculiar manner–able to wield our male privilege when we’re allowed to function as men, but subject to a particularly painful brand of transphobic and homophobic sexism when we’re understood as women.

Sure, sometimes trans guys get called tr*nny. But let’s please be real: It’s not that often, and it’s a recent phenomenon. Maybe we’ll get to the point where it’s a common enough slur against trans men that we can start to have the reclamation conversation. But man, I hope we don’t. It’s depressing and comical, us wanting our very own slur.

Sure, you might have a trans woman friend who doesn’t mind you calling yourself a tr*nny. This is because women, like men, don’t always agree with one another!

Sure, you may be very attached to the word “tr*nny” as a part of your identity. You can identify as anything you want! But if it is absolutely imperative for you to use that word, and you using that word makes trans women feel unsafe around you, I’m not sure what to tell you. Maybe you should do some work within yourself, trying to discover why you have such an intense need to own a word that makes people feel unsafe. All of which is to say that, ultimately, your identity is your identity, but you don’t need to share all of it with everyone if it makes them feel unsafe.

Raise your hand if you’re a young white trans guy who went/goes to a liberal arts college and is reading this on his Macbook. (My hand is raised.) Please know that most people who get tr*nny used against them on a daily basis are poor trans women of color. Please try to remember that working to include poor trans women of color in our movement is like, one of the most important things we need to do right now.

Which is more important, working to make trans women feel comfortable and safe in our community, or using a word that makes us feel all tingly and transgressive?

Resist transmisogyny. You do not need someone else’s slur to connect with your own history. Stop using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Stephen Ira is a writer and an activist who was assigned West Coast and showbiz but identifies as East Coast and books. He writes poetry, fiction, and essay-shaped objects which have been published in Spot Literary Magazine, 365 Tomorrows, and can be found on his own blog, Super Mattachine.

I can tell you that I'm a transwoman and I don't like or want that term applied to me. I'd be upset, in fact, if someone called me that. Mind you, I'm not a transwoman of color, nor am I young. I am, however, poor (at the moment) and in late middle age. When I hear the word 'trannie' I tend to think of an automobile transmission. I hope like hell that I don't look like one of those!

Hi All,

A close friend of mine is blogging for

originalplumbing.com

as Inmate 12004. He's a transguy and is in jail for 3 months because he recently got his 3rd DUI. He's an alcoholic and is currently in recovery. He's writing to shed some light on the transmale incarceration experience and to open up a dialogue around the issue of substance abuse in the queer community.

I think of OP as a really supportive community but there have already been a couple comments from epic DBags who have made some unfounded and spectacularly inaccurate assumptions about him. Regardless, what Inmate 12004 needs right now is love and support, not d-baggery. Are you a transguy? Or an ally? Have you or a loved one struggled with substance abuse? Please take a minute to contribute something meaningful and kind to the discussion.

lots of love (sans d-baggery),

a somewhat saddened ladyface