Clay, I am soooo looking forward to meeting you at the Reunion!!

Thanks Cajun that made me smile.... Yes it sounds like a franklin mint limited edition ad.

Oh do i have a hitch in my get-along!

I'm just catching up. Aisha asked this question a page or so back.

reprinted in part from a post I wrote in the Butches and Body Image thread:

"...I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity..."

Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity.

I went through a period where dresses and I didn't get along. I put on a kilt for a function once and something changed. (I know, weird!!) Now I am simply neutral on the issue. I am in general physically comfortable in the dresses/skirts that I have. They are modest in appearence and color. Not frilly or with coloful patterns or anything like that. The shoes not so much. Actually, the shoes make me feel way more gender-discomfort than the dress does. I hate those damn shoes!!

I do not wear dresses now except for special occasions where, for me, it is a sign of respect (Such as my cousin's funeral earlier this year) for my family. I should clarify that this is my choice to do that for them, they would be fine if I had worn respectful (in this case black) clothing.

*Laughing....in those situations I am still simply a butch in a dress.

being butch
 

its not something I wear, its nothing i do
Be gracious
respect
pride
self care
belief
earn respect

ok you made me spit donuts (yeah yeah I know real healthy) and coffee all over my puter...........laughin....

oh yeah welcome to the Planet.........

I used to get anxious every time I had to interact with people who don't know my name- would they call me sir, ma'am, he, she? Should I correct them? Should I make a joke or should I be all offended and snap at them?

Now, I just don't care.

Cashiers, wait staff, the guys at Jiffy Lube...they don't know that blue is my favorite color. They don't know that I collect Zippo lighters and books and sharp-pointy things. They don't know that I have a dog named Max and cats named Bella and Vinnie. Why should they know all about my gender identity/sexual orientation?

I just go with whatever they call me...which is especially funny when they call me "sir" 15 times and then look at the name on my Visa card- talk about priceless!

Late night confession ....
 

I don't pay much attention to whether someone calls me Sir, Ma'am, he, she etc when it's coming from store clerks or some other customer service person. I figure they are either required to say it or they are saying it out or habit. Not everyone who says "have a nice day" truly means it, lol.

When it comes to butch femme communities it is extremely invalidating and frustrating when male defaults are used. Most butches are not male or male id'd so why this continues to be perpetuated is truly beyond me. I thought we were trying to get past the binary. It's certainly not as bad on this site as others but it still occurs.

I am happy to refer to anyone by he or hy if that is what that individual prefers. However most butches are not he/hy and when it is used as a default I just feel the person doing it must be truly out of touch with the reality of how most butches live or they do it to not offend males (which is another sign of male being valued over female). The argument that we have to use he/hy for butches and she for femmes to tell the difference between the two is truly beyond ridiculous to me.

Some Butches feel ok "cross dressing," some don't. What makes a Butch butch is who they are, how they are within their own head and how they express that to the outside world.
Some use clothing as part of that presentation. In some cases it is ingrained deep enough to be beyond presentation....more part of the persona.

I feel much more comfortable in male attire. With the exception of the binder, I wear everything from the Men's department. And since the binder is kinda home-made, I guess that's "male attire" too.

But I am Butch because I feel the masculine energy surging inside me...undeniable....vivid. And because of how this energy is carried on into the outside world.

If I ever had to wear a dress, it would be long, loose and more like a robe...I'm not comfortable accentuating my "female" form. But that's just me.

Wolfsong wrote: "Throughout the course of my day I would say that I get addressed as a equal times as Sir or Ma'am. There are times that, for no apparent reason, when people address me as Sir I just want to scream at them "Are you fucking blind? Do you NOT see these tits? If these tits got any bigger they'd be required to have break lights and a license plate you dumbass!" but I just smile and move along. I've come to believe that this reaction is more about being hurt at being invisible to people than it does to my gender identity."



Wolfsong, your response to being mistaken for a man, despite your impressive boobage, made me remember fondly a butch lover who was almost always called "Sir," and who was confronted by security not once but twice in the time I knew her—after women reported a man in the ladies' bathroom.

She too marveled that anyone could mistake her for male, as her breasts were (and are, I suppose, though I haven't seen her for a while), absolutely huge.

What's interesting is that I read her as butch from the first moment I heard her beautiful deep voice on a friend's answering machine (she was trying to set us up, and knew I would swoon for it), and my reading never wavered, even though she is much more endowed upstairs, than I am.

Her breasts, in other words, did not feminize her. She didn't "present" them the way I present my own little girls, when we are dressing up to go out. She kept them under wraps, snugly out of the way. And they behaved, of course.

I think we "read" people based on certain indicators, and that we do this instantly and subconsciously. The signs that masculine energy is approaching were so clear, in my lover—physical aspects like her walk, her way of holding herself, her gaze, as well as cultural indicators, like her clothing—that the signs she is a woman became secondary.

I raise my glass (I mean, paper cup with coffee), to the large-breasted butch women out there in the world, who emit a welcome and much-appreciated vibe.

You dope....don't eat donuts. Even my fat ass is smarter than that. Hey listen I've had this mental image for years and it cracks me up every time. Whenever I take my bra off I see this in my head.....

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJxJakcwBOM&feature=related"]Looks great! Little full, lotta sap - YouTube[/nomedia]


My standard reply for "Excuse me sir, that is the ladies room" is "Great thanks. You know you would think after all these years by now I would have figured out how to pee standing up"




I think it is a lot more for me than feeling invisible as a woman, although there is that. Just because I am masculine does not automatically mean that I want to get rid of every aspect of my female self. I've worked hard to love me as my whole self. That includes her. It is because of her that I can. The woman in me is where my strength and power comes from and I would not betray her for anything in the world. I did that once and I fucked myself up. I think of myself as berdache, two spirits that are part of a whole me.

Besides, I can ignore my womaness all I want........ then when that first cramp hits every month all deniability is out the window and there I am in bed with a quart of ice cream, a box of tissue, and a remote watching Grease for the 900millionth time.

Anyways more than that, it's the feeling of being invisible as a person. As if my presence to that person means so little that they haven't looked me in the eye while speaking to me and actually saw me. *Shrugs.....my baggage I guess..... but I hate it when it happens to me so I make it a point not to do it to other people.

I have long hair and painted black nails... two coats and nice top coat, I also wear make-up with my t- and jeans or hoodies or more "female" clothing... nope I don't do dresses or even flowers, frilly or cutesy but just because it's not my style but I like my hips and tits... and my deep voice. I am a very strong, protective, loving, kind and bad azz female likes to get dirty (sometimes not) and who wants a good life for me and mine.

This is who I am... what does it mean beyond that about my sex or gender? Nothing. It doesn't speak for who I am. My heart and soul does that. I do admit, these days at first glance I could probably be mistaken for a femme or straight more than pegged queer or butch, somedays not, but the proof is in the pudding... dark intense chocolate w/ sprinkles on top in my case... xD

I will add that I don't like to "identify" w/ a single word... so I don't... but here (b/f spaces) is where I find myself again and again because the dynamic draws me... it is natural to me.

No rules,
Jett

In my own experience, I used to have very large breasts but I always wore baggy shirts. I still thought they were noticeable. I think a lot of people don't look there once they see the short spikey hair and masculine looks. They just assume I'm male.

One time, I was walking out of the women's bathroom and a woman was coming in. She gave me a look, hesitated, walked back to see the woman's sign for the bathroom. I said.. you are in the right place and I walked out. lol

If I'm in a mood, I will correct them and many times, I get the response: Oh, I didn't look up. Another time, I was checking into a rather fancy hotel and the woman at the desk kept saying sir... I kept saying ma'am.. this happened several times and she never looked at me. She even had my driver's license with my name which is not a male name.

Now that I have longer hair (for me), I don't get mistaken for male as much. My breasts are smaller so that leads me to believe people just don't look at the whole person.

Not sure where else to put this ...
 

Cleo Gardner (amazing Writer) wrote this...wished I had written it...it expresses my feelings sooo well....thank you Cleo!

♥♥♥ Butch Appreciation & Adoration ♥♥♥ to all the handsome, swarthy, perverted, warrior, two-spirted, gender bender, dapper, faggy, delicious, top, bottom, switch, witch, heart wounded, un/complicated, careful, pragmatic, chivalrous, rope tying, knitting, tool wielding, packing and anywhere on the masculinity/femininity spectrum Butches. those who are creating the geography of their own identity maps in the face of their constructed “otherness” ! To those who are gentle, firm, tender, those who make us proud to be on their arms, in their lives, their fantasies and a part of their dreams, the Butches who get harassed in the “ladies” rooms and those whose bodies refuse to conform. Those who stand quietly at the back of the room, bar, party but will be the first to step up when you need them.. those who smile even though they have struggled to get through the day dealing with homophobic looks and commentary as they live their everyday lives.. KNOW THIS.. as a Femme I love who you are and I’m aware that when I tell you you are damn fine and sexy that of course you squirm and blush because you enjoy it but it hurts my heart to know your discomfort also comes from being told you are ugly, too often.. yet you continue to challenge the heterosexist construct of being born female that is regurgitated relentlessly and for that humble but giant strength, I adore you.. understand that I have your back as I stand by your side.. That for me there is nothing more perfect and complete than a Butch who embraces their Butchness.. I will always notice your swagger and that your centre of gravity is low, growling vibrations that I can hear 100 metres away. The sound of your boots and the smell of your cologne lingers in my senses long after you have left the room.. Your energy, contradictions and essence are what fits my being and makes me feel I have found “home”. x

~ I cant speak for a butch this is their knowing ~from an admiring femmes point of view ~ a butch from birth;s confidence ~ hys knowing of hymself ~ is the most sexiesttttttttt ~ dayummmmm ~

I'm glad that I came across this thread.

After 15 years of almost exclusively dating very masculine butches - most of whom were to a large degree male-identified - and a few FTMs, I am now with a fully female-identified butch who is what I refer to as my "peacock butch" because of how male peacocks are far more showy and colorful than the females.

I knew even before we met in person that she sometimes wears makeup and sometimes paints her nails, that she sometimes carries a purse and that she buys most of her clothes from the women's section, and while she would never wear a dress or skirt, there are many things that she has worn and still wears that are far from masculine. I honestly wasn't sure at first how I'd react to this: Would I be able to relate to her as a butch if she had on lipstick?!? And I knew before we met that even her sexual expression was different than I was used to, in ways that I won't go into detail, but it left me wondering how I'd be with that.

So this took some seriously getting used to for me, but in the end I was glad to be forced to reexamine my definition of what makes someone butch. Because in all the ways that in the end really matte to ME, she is the butchest butch I've ever been with: In the butch/femme relationship and sexual energy that we have, in how we make love, in how she cares for me and is protective of me without it ever taking away from my own strength, in how in this butch/femme dance she naturally leads while I naturally follow while always being completely equal partners in that dance.

So yes, it was strange and new to me that when we went to the opera last week, along with her slacks and tailored silky blouse she wore a dramatic velvet cape, carried a clutch purse, and wore makeup. But it didn't diminish who she was as a butch one tiny bit, and I was relieved to find myself finally relaxing about my own responses. She loves flashing her colorful feathers and showing off her glorious self, and I love her all the more for her courage to be exactly who she is instead of feeling that she has to conform to a certain standard of dress in order to know that she's butch to the core. SHE knows who she is, and her confidence in that and her comfort in expressing herself in any way she wants (as opposed to if she dressed like that i order to hide) is all it took for me to be completely comfortable with her as my butch.

WOW! Great post! Good to hear of such a confident butch who knows who she is and doesn't give a crap as to others` definitions! She is lucky to have a partner like you who doesn't box her in!

desd said...

When it comes to my partner, it's a multitude of looks, of actions, that make her butch. Does she dress masculine? Yes. From the tips of her cowboy boots to her baggy jeans, to the Skoal can in her back pocket. Button-down men's shirt with a tie, cowboy hat sitting just so. It's the way she drawls "Hey gorgeous", the way her lips turn up when she smiles at me, the smouldering look in her eyes when we make love. It's the way she wraps her arms around me when we go to bed at night, the caress of her fingertips on my face when she brushes my hair back, the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd. It's the loving way she brings me dinner to work, the "I love you" text messages throughout the day, the spontaneous love notes. I realize some of this do not 'mean' butch - they mean love, a partner - but it's what makes my partner 'my butch'.. so it counts, right?

*smiles*[/QUOTE]

Dang what a writer! lol but you brought something to mind mind which is great for me with this 'what makes a butch' topic. It would kill me for someone to call me feminine, as to why? The best I can come up with is it is not me.
I know labels suck, but since I'm working on trying to figure out who I am, I love them as descriptions. So my question comes from this scenario as written above
"the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd."
Now if my butch girlfriend did that to me, that would be hot!

I'm having a hard time getting at what I'm trying to get at lol

Being in a butch-butch relationship has turned up some threats to masculinity, like in pictures, she doesn't like it when I have my arm over her shoulder, because it makes her feel less butch. Well then I feel less butch.
I'm sure this is why someone would question a butch-butch relationship, but its so worth it lol!

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care

subscribing... will definitely be back tonite...

I will make it short and sweet. Anything and everything a butch does is butch. Period. Full Stop.

Do not ever let anyone tell you that you are less than as a butch or less than as a person, or that your relationship is less than.

Please, PLEASE do NOT equate feminine with submissive!

If you have submissive moments or are submissive, then you're a submissive butch. Period.

Dang what a writer! lol but you brought something to mind mind which is great for me with this 'what makes a butch' topic. It would kill me for someone to call me feminine, as to why? The best I can come up with is it is not me.
I know labels suck, but since I'm working on trying to figure out who I am, I love them as descriptions. So my question comes from this scenario as written above
"the way her arm encircles my waist when we are walking through a crowd."
Now if my butch girlfriend did that to me, that would be hot!

I'm having a hard time getting at what I'm trying to get at lol

Being in a butch-butch relationship has turned up some threats to masculinity, like in pictures, she doesn't like it when I have my arm over her shoulder, because it makes her feel less butch. Well then I feel less butch.
I'm sure this is why someone would question a butch-butch relationship, but its so worth it lol!

I don't want to say I have a submissive side. I might, but it can't be considered feminine. I wanna know how other butches feel about these tight areas (if I have described it enough)...hopefully this is all still on topic

take care[/QUOTE]



are you saying that your girlfriend is the dominate one in the relationship? you can say that you are submissive, or have submissive tendencies, it's ok lol. own them!

ok... i haven't been able to read but i have thought about it alot today... and this is just my opinion...

a Butch is a Butch when that is how they feel.... not ID... Male or Female ID butches feel the way they do.. it is apart of them... its the core values of what they believe... and its an aura... NO femme can miss... the confidence.. the way they hold themselves and the way that they treat their partner...

this is just my thoughts..,.

A Butch is whoever they want to be. Individuality is amazing and conformity sucks!

180
 

Thanks for the dividing line, and calling me out; I really don't know why I felt submissiveness was a feminine quality, instead of being a quality. I will definitely make sure when I'm posting to watch for myself equating feminine/submissive/weakness, but I can sense how wrong it is. Its all I've ever associated with. I've got some issues man, forced into one too many dresses or something. The only submissiveness I know of is abuse, although I keep hearing people put it in a positive or sexy light, there's something out there more then the bullshit I have experienced apparently.

You used the phrase "submissive butch"...that will give me something to ponder.

I think I might be changing the topic slightly here, I apologize