Anya,

I hope by "you," you mean "you plural," and you're not speaking directly to me—because I never intended or implied or meant that a person isn't a "real feminist" if they change their name to their partner's.

Just clarifying, and hope we're cool.

Scout

Everyone was sure I would be a boy.My name was to be
Lloyd after my grandfather. Relatives reminded me of This
constantly while growing up. My last name will not be
carried on because of me not finding a wife to bear me
some chillens. Snort ! At times, I even thought of adopting.
Slapping a name on an adopted kid feels gross to me now, too.
A name would not have made a kid feel more loved , ONLY love
does that!!! . I know that after watching my nephews grow
up with fathers who were not bioligical. Ha , I nearly slipped
just now and said " real" fathers. Its gross , how we are so programmed
to view love as an ownership.

Last week, I saw a butch introducing her wife as only " MY wife."
It was a disgusting display ( to me) of ownership, coupled with
what felt to be butch postering ( My woman, not yours ,MINE)
She said it ovah
and ovah to anyone who would listen ,until I said
" that's nice, so what' s her name?" :l

As much as I want someone being exuberant and
proud to be with me , don't evah forget I have a fucking
name. I am complete ,all on my own and I aint
Becoming ONE with anyone. Fuck that.
To me, that mind-set reeks of co-dependancy.
So because of that stupid jerry McGuire movie
that way of thinking is glamorized again?
There are soo many ways to be romantic without
having to go theah.

Hi Scout,

Of course not.

I re-read my post a couple of times and where I did use you, I basically meant the whole of the planet, not you in particular.

I also quoted you because of the use of the tacit vibe phrase.

I jumped off of your post because it fit and resonated with me.

Thanks for clarifying:) and we are always cool.

I love to read your articulate and well-written posts.

Speaking just for me here
 

Yesterday was our wedding anniversary. Truly Scrumptious and I celebrated last night by, among other things, sharing a fabulous dinner that I made and some awesome chocolate that I did not. We talked a little about this thread at some point in the evening. We live in Quebec where the law does not allow name changes when you marry. If you want to change your name you are required to follow the same procedure that anyone must who seeks a name change. As you might imagine married people don’t usually change their names unless they have lots of extra cash lying around or it is for some reason extremely important to them. Apparently it’s not that important for most men to give their wife their name. Not important enough to pay for anyway. A man understands as long he procreates his name will live on. So no biggie. Probably why giving a wife your name is not a thing in many cultures. It’s not really important in the grand scheme of patrilineal societies nor does it hamper ownership or control of wives.

The law in Quebec might be the reason that changing our names never came up when we married. I’m sure it was one of the factors. For me I know I never even thought about it. I certainly had no desire to be honored by having Truly take my name. It’s not an honor to me, it’s not anything at all to me. It’s an honor that Truly wanted to marry me. It’s an honor that she wants to share her life with me. I remember saying that I would never marry another woman because marriage was a sexist institution and I had no desire to engage in such patriarchal traditions. Obviously I have moved past that. I wanted very much to marry Truly. The patriarchy be damned.

My wife told me she would have loved to have my name. That was a surprise. She said she really likes my name. She thinks it’s a cool name and would be happy to take it as her own. Of course I would give her my name. I would give her anything. Likewise I would take her name if it was important to her. Personally I could care less. I have no real attachment to my father’s name. Nothing against my father at all. I loved my dad. It’s just a very patriarchal thing to me. My mother is not even in the equation. It was my father’s name and it was his father’s name and so on. As a women who has her father’s name I would not be passing on anything that has to do with the matriarchal side of my family anyway. It’s all patrilineal. Since my father only had two daughters I suppose if I gave a shit it would be a way to carry on his name. But since I don’t give a shit about this patriarchal crap anyway that is no motivation at all for me. However if my wife wanted it she could have it.

Misogyny, sexism, and all things patriarchal have taken enough from me, from all women. I will not willingly give up anything. If I choose to marry I will marry. If I choose to take my wife’s name I will do that. If I choose to give my name to my wife I will do that as well. Not one more thing will I willingly allow the patriarchy to take from me, not one more thing will it ruin and soil. Patriarchy steals everything from women. And I am a woman just like my wife is a woman. Maybe that makes a difference I don’t know. I don’t identify as male. I don’t feel any attachment to a male lineage. But my wife and I will share whatever we want. I am a woman, a butch and a feminist and I can take my wife’s name if we choose or give her mine if we choose. And I’m still a woman, a butch and a feminist. And if I don’t take her name or she doesn’t take mine it will be because we both decided we don’t want that. It won’t be because we allowed the patriarchy to keep something we want from us. Just like I will not allow patriarchy to own and define masculinity in its own image, it can’t own and define marriage or name changing traditions.

I am a butch woman. If I were to get married I certainly would not expect or demand that my femme partner change her last name to mine. If she wanted to, however, I would consider it a great honor. I would not think of it as being heteronormative. If I get married, it is two women getting married and we forge our own path. I do not equate butch with male or male norms at all for myself, and my partner changing her last name to mine certainly would not change that. It would be her choice.

What if she wanted me to change mine to hers? I would consider it, and my decision wouldn't be based on me being butch and her being femme. To be honest, I have never considered changing my last name, so I think it would be unlikely unless there was a big significance of it for her. The fact that I have never considered changing my last name, I really don't think it has anything at all to do with me being butch. My last name is kind of common, but it is also one I like, even though it is from my father (who I don't really have a relationship with). I think the most likely scenario is for us to both keep the same name we had when we met.

I understand that in heterosexual marriages when there is a name change, that to this day it is almost always the woman who changes her name. There seem to be more femmes who change to the butch last name when there is a change in marriage. (I guess that is true, although I don't know how much evidence we have of that really. Of the couples that I have known who got married, most of them kept their own last name.) However, as a butch woman it is also very frustrating for me to be lumped in with male standards or being viewed as "male-like." I fight very hard to be seen as a woman and as a legitmiate butch at the same time in butch femme community, especially online. I also get that butches do tend to be over valued, which does seem to be tied to masculinity, and that is also wrong.

Ever since I can remember I have always wanted to keep my last name. It was not my fathers name, but my Grandfathers. I do not have a common last name, I am very proud of it's meaning and where it came from. Growing up it was and still is part of my identity. There are no other men in my family to carry on my families name and almost all the women have a different last name. It's out of respect for my Grandfather and my family that I would never change my last name. I also intend to share my last name with my children, but that is for both parents to decide. As for my partners willingness to share my last name that would be up to her and would not be a condition of marriage. Although in my heart I would like to have my family all share one name.

These are just my personal thoughts. I am not saying they are right. They are just right for me

Since this thread was revitalised posters on both sides of the debate have had their legitimate questions roundly ignored, gotten triggered, touched on social dominance and submission, wondered whether they were being called bad feminists, and discoursed about the evils of the institution of marriage as it was originally conceived. Several other hot-button subjects have been broached, but I'm not motivated to go back far enough to count them up. Somehow this discussion has remained polite, for which I'm thankful. I have no desire to make anyone feel defensive about their choices. I hope nothing I've written about my own strong feelings has made anyone feel judged.

To be clear, even though marriage was formerly an institution that literally enslaved women, I'm an active, enthusiastic proponent of marriage equality. That's at least in part born out of my personal experiences having the doo-doo hit the fan when my late partner and I were not protected by legal recognition of our relationship. Our community can and does reappropriate words and customs that have been formerly used against us. I call myself a dyke even though that's still a fighting word for kids who are at this very moment being bullied in school.

I also have no problem whatsoever with a woman being submissive to her dominant partner, whatever their gender presentations. I'm active in the BDSM community, and I'm profoundly sexually submissive. While I've never been socially submissive to my partners, I know many people who are. Like me, that's their essential nature, but it doesn't mean that they're less-than, or that they're weak, and it certainly doesn't mean that they're not feminists. As it happens, many who are full-time submissives to their dominant partners are kick-ass women, and very competent, well respected professionals.

In my circles, people in full time D/s relationships often use the language of ownership to signal their status. A Dominant might say, 'My girl/sub/slave', without necessarily naming her. Just as Dude described the butch who relentlessly identified her partner as 'My wife' without naming her. Someone collared to Jane might be honored to be known as Jane's boi. If they married, that boi might choose to take Jane's name. Or not. In our BDSM community those conscious choices are made with full consent and a great deal of awareness about their ramifications.

Correlation is not causation. I AM NOT saying that a woman who takes her partner's name outside of a BDSM context is by definition signaling her submissive position in the relationship. I AM saying that a woman in relationship with a masculine or male partner who takes their partner's name reflexively, without processing that choice, and without having a conscious reason for doing so, is -willingly or not- participating in the overwhelming dynamic in our culture of presumed masculine dominance and feminine submission.

I'm deeply troubled when straight women presume without questioning that they'll take their husband's name, and even more deeply troubled by entitled men who assume that this is their right, because this is how it's always been. If a femme wants to take her butch partner's name that's her business and her decision to make. I just hope that women- straight, queer, femme or otherwise- would think those choices all the way through before making them.

It's the reflexive presumption part that makes me cranky.

I was reading some of these posts about name changing with marriage and I see many people have very deep feelings about it,

I myself feel that it would be an honour to carry the name of my partner, to feel the sense of belonging to them.

ok I know that sounds a bit old school but I feel that in life and work I am very strong and can hold my place in any work with men or women and feel that the home and personal life with my partner is something completely different.

I don't feel that my femininity or even my ability to portray a woman of authority is changed in any way by the name I choose.

heck I could change my last name to mud and it wouldn't make a difference to the woman I am.

so with marriage I just find it as an honour to carry my spouses name

It’s not like it has eluded me that most of the masculine identified people on this thread want to give their name and most femme partners, who want to change names, want to take their masculine partner’s name. No real surprise there. And it’s not likely to change any time soon. If ever. But it’s still a good idea to bring it out in the open and look at it. I doubt it’s going to make any difference to anyone in regards to whether they change their name in marriage or whether they take their femme’s name or give their name to their femme partner. Nor do I see it as a condemnation of anything at all. What I see it as is self examination. The checking and examining of motives and beliefs and seeing where they may or may not come from.

I always talk about holding my masculinity suspect and examining myself for possible misogynistic ideas and behaviors. This is what I mean. We, and by we I mean everyone who lives in a patriarchal society, have internalized to some degree the belief that masculine/male/man is superior to feminine/female/woman. It would be a feat of Herculean proportion not to have. There is no crime in that. The problem to me is that we often refuse to examine ourselves and drag this shit out into the light and shake it off. Washing off patriarchal shit is a lifetime job. I don’t get defensive. I can’t help the world I developed my sense of self in. What I can help is how much of this crap I continue to carry. I can marry and change my name in marriage or give my name in marriage without falling pray to heteronormative ideals. I can even change my name Miss Tick on the Planet because it’s more feminine than I feel comfortable with without losing my feminist card. Masculinity is difficult to hold honorably in a society who uses it as a weapon to control women. To me in order to do this I need to hold myself accountable and I need to be willing to check myself for unconscious misogyny. And because i am a woman who identifies deeply with her masculine side does not mean i am not still a woman who pays a high price living in a misogynistic world just like all women do. But often I have to put that aside because I carry masculinity as an identity and I partner with women. I cannot let the idea that I am also a woman stop me from holding myself accountable and examining myself for my motives when indulging my masculinity. I like to swing my dick around as much as the next guy so to speak. I have to catch myself and see if it's really just all in good fun or if I am perpetuating some misogynistic bullshit.

Anyway back to marriage and name changing.

Looking at this issue openly and honestly and examining it from every angle doesn’t ultimately mean I can’t give Truly Scrumptious my name if we decide that’s the way we want to go. It just means that I have taken the time to examine and understand the possible issues going on behind my choice. And I’m speaking for myself here. I’m not saying anyone hasn’t examined their choices and looked at the misogyny inherent in those choices. I’m just saying looking and understanding the history, meaning and misogyny behind name changes for women who marry doesn’t mean it’s a wrong choice for you. Or that it means you are aping heteronormative relationships if after examining this you still chose it.

And I believe masculine identified people should also take the time to examine and process these kinds of things as well.

I'm not asking why people are an exception. I'm asking why it's rare for butches to take femmes last names. I'd kind of like to address that. Not why individual couples are an exception.

I saw ONE person admit "cause I like heterosexual traditional roles" and that they *like* heteronormativity. Ok, that's absolutely fine. as long as that's a cognisant choice.

So of the butches here ON THE BOARDS (not your one friend of many) would take a femme's last name if she didn't want to change hers? or would you just opt out of changing names all together if she didn't want to? I'm not going to attack you for opting out if she won't change hers, but you might wanna think about "why not change mine? sincerely, what is the issue I would have with that, even though I'd like our names to be the same."

(and thanks for answering bulldog)
thank you, Miss Tick.

and thanks for the encouragement to keep partaking. I've been having a very frustrating time with either articulating myself of having people refuse to aknowledge my points lately in life and feeling kinda like opening my mouth is pointless.

I said:
" Of course I would give her my name. I would give her anything. Likewise I would take her name if it was important to her."

But in case that is not clear I would be happy to take her name if she didn't want mine and wanted a name change. I don't care.

sorry, Miss Tick, I missed that. I'm reading on a school break with a headache lol

Ok, I'm going to try and rephrase this

Of those butches of whom would *like* to have the same name as their partner, that they've thought about it their partner and them having the same name before they even have a partner, would they take the femmes name if she didn't want to change her name. Do *you* (butch) want the same name, and if so would you be willing to change yours? Or would you just think eh, nevermind then. I'm not asking for answers on the board, I am only asking that you think about why your answer is what it is.

if desd had asked me to change my name to hers hell yes I would have considered it we would have talked about at and as a unit come to a decision. She chose to take my name and for me it was important more because of family reasons my brothers having been adopted by their step father I alone have the name a name that is dear to me. My daughter with my EX has her last name and has my last name as her middle name. I know for us it would have been more a conversation of what we wanted as opposed to what is the norm

however if my ex had asked me to take her name I would have said nope no way and I would not have wanted to give her mine I think that says a lot she also scoffs at the butch femme dynamic and wanted me to change to suit her
I hope I have at least given you some answers this is kind of hard for me sometime in the thread I have felt judged and belittled for that fact that desd and I chose what we did however it doesn't matter what anyone thinks we are happy in love building a life and family together
may you have a wonderful day :rrose:

Trying to think about this further, I honestly have never thought of changing my last name. I don't think it has to do with specifically being butch, but I do think it very much has to do with being a lesbian. When I was younger I did not believe I wanted to get married, even if it was legal. I was in a 13 year relationship in my middle 20s to later 30s and we did not have a commitment or marriage ceremony. My feelings about marriage have changed, and now I really would like to if there is ever the opportunity for it.

There are some things I really have very little personal experience with that are common for most women. Maybe some are related to being butch, some with being a lesbian. I have no personal experience with birth control whatsoever. I have never even thought about it for myself, simply because I have never needed to. The same thing with changing my name. It just has never come up for me. I have had a couple of femmes express they would like to change their last name to mine if we got married. It truly felt like an honor and was something that meant a great deal to me. It was their choice to say and feel that. I don't feel it came out of any sense of obligation or need to follow any certain roles. It was something they felt they might like to do. I have never been asked if I would like to change mine by a femme I was partnered with. I would consider it, but it would be an entirely new experience for me to even contemplate. It isn't something I would volunteer on my own, because as I have said I am satisfied with my last name. If it was something that was very meaningful to her, I think I would do it out of love and it would feel like an honor.

Thing is Bulldog, even though I'm a lesbian, changing my name *has* always been a question for me. And I think that *does* have to do with being a femme.
So the question has always been "if I get married, am I going to change my name??"
Not "is my partner going to want my name?" or "I'd be honoured if she took my name"

this is what I'm kind of trying to point at.

ETA I'm not trying to call anyone a bad person. It's just I'm trying to point out something like.... and I'm not using this to campre with racism but as a similar concept of "unpacking" .... I never thought about why there was no brown band aides. that doesn't mean I'm evil. It means, I've never had to think about it. I'm just trying to show some differences in assumed thought processes.

am I saying this clearly? can someone help me? I feel I'm not being clear.

Hi HB, perhaps it is common for femmes to think about changing their name when considering marriage. It never has been for me, and to me it does seem more tied to being a lesbian than being butch. I have always assumed that most likely if I got married we would both keep our names.

The femmes that I have known that have expressed interest in changing their last name (whether with me or someone else) or have changed their last name, to me it has always very much felt like a choice they were making for themselves.

Perhaps femmes do consider changing their names a lot more than butches do. It could be.

I did not take my former spouse's name. It was a heterosexual marriage and I did not think about it. I did not feel the need. People used that last name for me automatically because I was married. That did not bother me. My maiden name is a mouthful and I do not have a strong attachment to it.

When Greyson and I got married he asked me if I would take his name. This was important to him. His last name is lovely and since it was not my first marriage I felt like this was something special I could give to him. My kid does not like it even though I have never had the same last name as her!

I feel like our having the same last name is a reflection of this marriage being a true partnership where my first was not. It says something about us as a couple. I like that. It may say other things to people on the outside...patriarchy or sexism. I don't really care about that.

but I think there is something in that bulldog. Of course it's a choice no one is holding a gun to their head. but we make choices based on...

ok. nevermind. I can't. I'm stopping cause I obviously am not able to explain clearly or articulate in a way that's understood.

I may come back later or I may just go over my homework. Like I'm sposed to.

Like I said Julie, I'm not talking about why individual people are exceptions. I'm talking about ... I'm starting to feel like a record now.

I am typing in english, right?


I'm off for internet kittens and neurology. :)

You are making perfect sense. I understand you and I agree that femmes probably consider it more than butches do. Not all femmes, but on the whole I think that is true and there is something to look at there.

Yes I get it!! My post was not in response to you or your points. I was reflecting on the differences in my two marriages and how that motivated me.

Kittens are good!

I think a lot of people have come on and explained what they believe was behind their desire to change their name or give their name or keep both names or whatever. I think that in and of itself is a big thing really. People are not going to understand where every other person is coming from. That’s just the way it is. That we listen to each other and think about what the other has said is really all we can hope for and really quite a lot I believe. Sometimes even when we are saying the same thing it is often not recognized as such or has enough of a little twist that we don’t see it. For example HB called it unpacking I called it holding my masculinity suspect. We both mean similar things. I just think the most important thing in discussions that are fraught with deep feelings and beliefs is that we all respect each other, listen without judgment and if at the end it is all we can do, we just agree to disagree. I believe if we keep an open mind, listen without judgment, little seeds get planted and have a chance to germinate. Overtime people can change their ways of looking at stuff. Or not. It's all good. And it's why I bother to talk and why I bother to listen.

HB, I think you are trying to get at patterns and cultural conditioning. It may very well be that femmes consider name change more than butches. If so, why? Maybe butches are more reluctant to change their last names. If so, why? These types of questions may very well be worth examining. For me, it does seem to lead to me being placed in the "man-like" camp, which is something I bristle at and really can't relate to. But perhaps there is a fruitful way of talking about it.

People are posting to their own individual experiences because that is how they can relate to the question of name change and marriage. The decision does seem to be very much tied to very personal reasons to me. That is not to say that overall patterns don't exist that aren't worth examining.

For me, when I was younger I did not believe in same sex (or any type) marriage for myself. I wasn't open to the possibility of marriage until I was in my late 30s. I was never unhappy with my last name, and I still am not. I haven't ever thought about changing to a partner's, but if she really wanted me to I would definitely consider it. That is just my personal experience. I don't think it is typical butch or anything like that. It is just me and the life I have led. It is possible I am more part of a butch pattern than I realize, and it doesn't hurt to think about it and examine it further.

I don't think anyone is disputing the observation that if someone is going to give their name, it is more likely to be a butch, and if someone is going to take a name, it is more likely to be a femme.

instead of continuing to speculate about what motivates people to be that way, I'll speak for myself:



I don't want to name another human being, unless it is my child.

And I would never presume to name an adult, even if I were in a relationship with that person.

To put it another way, I would never want to bestow my name on another adult, or "give her my name," as the expression goes.

I would not feel honored if she wanted to replace her name with mine; I would feel worried about what I would see as her need to assume part of my identity.

Also, I would have too much respect for my partner's right to name herself, to change her name to mine. I would have too much respect for her name, to support its erasure.

And if she really wanted that, I would be uncomfortable.

As I see it, my name reflects me. Her name reflects her. I don't want HER name to reflect ME, or MY name to reflect HER. Some would say, But then it would reflect US. I say, no that doesn't ring true for me. That equation doesn't equal "us" to me.

I would not feel less loved, because she doesn't want to be named after me.

Likewise, I don't want to name myself after another person.

I want to carry the name that reflects my history, my family, my hard work that has been attached to that name.

If a partner wanted to name me after herself, or rather, wanted me to name myself after her, I would feel reinvented in a way I don't want.

I would feel like she wanted me to be an addition to her history, not a continuation of my own. I would feel that she didn't love and respect my name.

That's why I wouldn't be in a couple in which one person's last name represented us both.

I have come in here twice now and haven't answered the question.
For me, there is so much layered into it that I keep getting
sidetracked.
I would be cool with doing the hyphonated thing. For
me, it feels like the healthiest choice.
It means ( to me ) I could still be an individual and many other
things factor into that.

My whole life , I have wanted to propose but have not :)
I would have to be very sure that it was a healthy fit to
go down that road.

As role-ish as I am sometimes in relationships. The
healthier ones were with take charge types of women.
I'm sort of shy and think way too much.
So, as I was driving around this morning ( thinking)
I thought how cool it would be for a femme to propose.
I would likely brag about that everyday.
Old dogs really can learn new tricks! ;]
Old school can blend into new school ways.
I've learned to never give away my favorite shirt
But instead to give away my second favorite shirt.

I do notice , often online butches being intimidated by intelligent femmes
which strikes me as odd.
They seem to want that upper hand thing or want to feel superior.
I like smart women and hope to fall in love with
someone wayyy smarter than me , one day

I have finally read everything. Lots of differing opinions and quite honestly, a whole lotta judgment going on here.

Who cares why someone takes another person's name? Really? If a butch asks a femme to take their name and the femme is happy, who cares? If a femme wants to take her butches name, who cares? If a butch takes her name? WHO CARES?

I am getting married to Dreamer next May. Dreamer never asked me to take his name. I never asked Dreamer to take my name. We did have the conversation and I simply said, I am not changing my name. I hope you understand. Dreamer said, of course I do. Dreamer said, he would like to take my name and I was fine with that, but after discussing logistics... Immigration, Passports, Pensions, etc. We both decided too much work and so not worth it.

My name is my father's name, and it was his mother's name (maiden) and was his father's name. The line of my name goes thousands of years. It is rich in history for me. To give up my very Jewish name, was not an option for me. Not even a thought. Though, I did worry it might hurt Dreamer's feelings and was quite relieved it did not.

I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them.

Signed,

Julie without a dowry. Though, I am sure this really upsets my beloved dominant butch. Sorry baby.

I fn forgot about the ring part!
I got sidetracked with the "on bended knee" buisness ;]
I don't do rings , so don't bother until I can go with and
get a comfy one.
I will then buy you the biggest rock my credit can mustah .

Here's to new and improved fantasies ~~clink~~~

I don't think the subject of this thread is trivial.

Who is trivializing it?
If (and I am assuming) by my WHO CARES comment. I can assure you, I do not think any part of a relationship or commitment is trivial, including taking or changing your name. I think it is sad, when we start shaming people for their choices.

show me where I shamed someone for their CHOICE.

should I re-post my post about norms and what do you think that might mean and it NOT being about individuals but a greater...

hello? *tap tap* *tap*

maybe I should start speaking dutch? would that help?

probably not. I'm not sure you read my posts without the "acusitory meany mc mean angry poo breath" filter on me that wasn't *there*.

take that off, maybe put on the "wow, I've noticed that most femmes give their names up. Butches *tend* not to. maybe we should think about that" filter on.

If the subject of that *doesn't* interest you then say "I don't care if most femmes give their names and most butches don't. I don't agree with thinking about it. I've got dishes to do."

or whatever.

y'know?

Did I say honeybarbara you are shaming people?
No, I did not say that.
Perhaps you are feeling it on your own accord.
yknow?

nope you didn't name anyone and I'm the one that brought it up. so if there is a pa statement of "gosh, it feels judgy in here" *eyeball round* *saying nothing direct*

...and not naming who's dealin' it, I'll be happy to address it. so if you don't mean *me*, then how bout:

actually quoting who and what they said to actually address the comments you *do* mean, so it's clear and my princess self don't get all me me me knickers wedged up in my crack hm?

Nah... I am not in the mood to play tonight.
However... If you would like me to help you pull your princess knickers out of that crack of yours -- send me a shout!
:-)

absolutely. quote the shaming. lets look at it.

Really? I just cannot do this anymore tonight. I have been up since 6am - there is a typhoon in the Philippines and for me right now. That is more important and I have Dreamer on SKYPE - uber important. Not to mention, I still haven't watched AHS or Survivor. Y'know?

well... that's ok too. you aren't interested in the dialogue. no one has to be. Im sure you have more important things to do. My neurology isn't really getting done as I tippy tap away here.

you could help me by tying some floss to the drive-by-comment to the gusset, on your way past, in future.

Actually, I am interested in dialogue with you. I am rather intrigued by your mind and how you formulate your thoughts.

And... I had to have the aussie translate your last paragraph for me. And you are right, I am not following through and my intention was not for a drive by. I just don't have the energy tonight or brain power and will be happy to continue this with you when I do. And I say that with the utmost respect. Seriously.

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.