Clarification
 

QoS there were plenty of posts that were educational for the OP, she even stated so. The last You Tube video wasn't conducive to the conversation that had been had.

All it did was stir up up shit. Then when there was a WTF response by me I was taken to task for reacting in the manner I did, mind you I was not the ONLY one that was like WTF, yet I am the one singled out because of my WTF matter of fact I got accused of bullying.

So at this point it's tiring to continue to have to put in any more effort, because every fucking time I do someone, somewhere, and they are generally white come an tell me I am to LOUD, TO AGGRESSIVE, I'm a BULLY it goes on and on and on.


I don't care how the convo goes now, it isn't like anyone is going to listen anyway to what Stud, Aggressives, Machas are.

It's obvious.

I'm not as patient as you:)

100th Monkey effect
 

I love the word "appropriation". I think I will borrow it, maybe tweak it a tad for my uses and move on.

OK, I'm being silly(ish) to make a point: what about the natural instinct of all creatures to use what fits and works better? I've heard it called the "100th Monkey" effect.

I prefer the term "100th Monkey Thing" myself.

I suspect that part of what some call cultural stealing is really just the 100th Monkey Thing.

Ohhhhh I didnt realize thay had another term for white privilege now...thanks for updating us on this sillyish point you are trying to make...read loud and clear.

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

Ah. I see. Thanks for explaining that.

I agree, and that is sort of what my point was. There WERE posts (replies to her question) that helped to educate her; I'm all for that.

Agreed, although I think it *could have* had some value to the discussion if there had been some narrative to go along with it from the poster, like "And then we have this kind of crap.... obviously this girl needs some education on the larger GLBTQ community!" It could have been used as an example of what goes wrong when people are NOT educated.

Trust me, as someone who has gotten her fair share of "you're a bitch" because I speak my mind, I know it gets old, and it can derail us from saying what we really want to say.

I disagree. I think people are listening/reading, and I think your contributions to the thread were received in different ways by different people - that's par for the course, but I still think it's valuable.

You caught me on a good day :)

Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( :( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

Ah. Explains the defensiveness. I can see your point.

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

I wish I had that much faith in YouTube. I reported the video my kid watched and left a comment and disliked it and nothing happened.

Not everybody learns that way though, Corkey. In my style of learning, for example, I learn much better by interaction with others rather than reading text. This could possibly be because I'm extremely right-brained but I do not readily absorb information unless it's presented to me in a creative way. That's just my learning style, it has nothing to do with laziness or not caring.

Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

sorry, i was away for the last two days w/no internet or i would have jumped in...i'm super grateful for folks' posts, especially snow, corkey, and chino. snow already said all there is to be said on the subject of education. apparently it needs repeating, though.

i just wanted to address, re: "being a resource" - i like being a resource for people. i love teaching (and for that matter learning). i love being able to give people information and links. i also take on that role professionally a lot when doing accessibility work - coordinating people and resources.

but too often women, esp poc, and indigenous folks are expected to "be resources" - well, you know what happens to resources? resources get USED UP and commodified and misused and appropriated and stolen and wasted. particularly used up.

i'm a human being, not a resource.

in my opinion at least as an indigenous woman who's been stuck in the resource position (and sometimes chosen it, too), expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. (in addition to the learning issues.) because not only do we have to be a resource for the new white lesbian girls but we also have to be experts on how to assimilate to white culture without completely being destroyed (and the experts on everything white culture in general), plus, you know, have lives and stuff too.

What I have learned as a white person is that sometimes it is painful and hurtful for people of color to hear white people process their questions and feelings. That is the privilege we have. So it is helpful for us to read or talk to other white people who might know more than we do. Asking questions is fine but sometimes we have to understand that people might not want to answer. That is their right.

I totally understand what you are saying about having trouble learning that way. I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.

I tried to read this whole thread, but I just cannot and do not want to wade through it any further than I did.

This thread is a perfect example of the cannibalization that goes on in our community.

It's like the operation was a success, but the patient died.

What the hell happened to "Sisterhood is Powerful"?

Was the revolution a success, yet the sisterhood died?

Bleh.

the "sisterhood" hasn't often been a place of power and safety and community for indigenous women and women of color. sometimes it's come at our expense. i for one thought the fact that snow got called a bully again for adding to the conversation by sharing what it's like for her to deal with racism on a daily basis again was pretty cannibalizing.

perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

Ah! No It was the perfect word because that is where the beginning of exploitation always occurs. The stud has always been a freak of nature, beyond time, the traditions of men, and culture.

Hi Glenn. I can sort of imagine what you might mean by "freak of nature." On the other hand, I am totally at a loss as to what "beyond time" is about. And as for "the traditions of men, and culture"—again, not sure I know what traditions, what men, and what culture you're referring to.

I'm interested in what you're saying. If you feel like it, could you possibly elaborate?

Thanks.

There have been many "studs" throughout history that are both female and male who have "planted their seeds" in others spiritually, intellectually, politically, artistically, physically, etc. For example, Jesus was a "stud" imo, who defied the pharisees, and has sired many spiritual giants. But, many do not have the capablities of the orginal "stud", who try to emulate them like many do.,which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was later that the oringinal teaching was exploited. But then their idealogies or "seeds" continue, until another one is "born" , to give birth to, hopefully, a better world of people.

Hi, Glenn. Thanks for your patience. I sort of understand the first part of what you wrote, and that's a new one for me, your take on Jesus.

The part I bolded though, completely lost me. Please don't feel compelled to explain any further but if you do, I would read with interest.

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

Exactly. Which is why I posted that. No one is responsible for how I learn. When I first was told, quite clearly, that my questions were hurtful I took the suggestion to watch Tim Wise. Then I got his books and then I went to see him speak in person. That helped me enormously. That was a space where my questions and fumblings were ok.

because you're white.
 

Are you saying that you're NOT WHITE?

OK another white person talking about her impressions of stud. Seems kinda weird and off-putting to be doing this. But here goes.

Where I used to live, the studs closer in age to me would often have manicured nails or earrings or do their hair in ways that were more feminine. But I'd also seem them wearing men's suits and hats. They tended to dress more like that when they were going out with their girlfriends. In my generation, most of the studs were very comfortable presenting themselves as masculine and feminine at the same time, sometimes more one than the other depending on the day.

Where I lived and worked for a few years -- in CA -- it seemed to me that the younger women more consistently presented as masculine. However, most of them used names or nicknames that ID'd them as female and used female pronouns.

I am not sure that this has ANYTHING to do with the stud ID. I think it has more to do with the fact that many African Americans do butch or stud differently.

This is also from back in the day. My experience and from friends who have talked to me about it is that it was disrespectful for a stud not to be treated as the dominant partner in public, but that in private, whatever works in your bed or relationship is fine. I am talking outside of a leather context.

Stud does feel different to me, but not less or more masculine. Just different. It feels -- and this is me, me, me -- like people have had less of a struggle with it as an ID. I wonder if that is because it was more accepted and known among straight and gay African American people than butch is among gay and straight white people. I don't know.

African Americans traditionally have polled as against gay marriage etc. But my impression is that there is a certain lack of surprise bordering on tolerance re lesbian relationships. Gay male relationships get more criticism, as always.

One of my former students was a self-ID'd stud. Her girlfriend was a femme. She had had previous girlfriends -- all straight. She was the first woman each had been with. Anyway, my student's mind was a little blown by the femme girlfriend. Femmes were different from straight girls, she told me (not knowing that she was talking to a femme. lol). Anyway, as she described it, the femme girlfriend was almost too confident. She knew what she wanted in and out of bed, and was, in general, a proud lesbian. They stayed together, however. I think the student just had to adjust to the ways of the new girlfriend.

Anyway, to this student -- before she met her femme girlfriend -- lesbians were studs. From her point of view, the women they fucked were NOT by definition lesbian. They were most often not. They were straight or possibly bisexual. They were girls who couldn't resist the charms of a stud lover.

I had another student, well before the other's time, who ID'd as bisexual She is feminine and at that time was a pimp. She turned her girlfriends out. She took care of them when they got arrested or pregnant, but she was a pimp. Her theory was that feminine women slept with other women because women know how to sexually please other women. In her mind, if you presented as feminine, you were probably not a lesbian. Studs were lesbians. Feminine women might be bisexual, as she was, but were more likely straight and just liked sex with women because men were inept by comparison.

I have no idea how common these attitudes are among young African American women in Richmond or anywhere else. But talk about femme invisibility.

The only issue I have with this is it takes away from the sense of community. Maybe I'm not understanding something socially about how people come together on forums. (Wouldn't be the first time.) However, if I saw somebody start a thread asking a question, and I didn't want to be a resource, I'd just avoid the thread. Therefore I wouldn't have to be a resource and would have no reason to be upset about having been asked to be one. To me, starting a thread in a forum filled with hundreds or thousands of different people does not ask a direct question of one person. It is simply that: A question. Anyone can choose to (or not to) respond.

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?