But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

True, and amazing things have happened since I was young. BUT, in some ways the United States is more conservative than it was when I was a kid. And my memory of pre-Reagan days is an asset, something the young do not have.

A good friend of mine is from a different country and culture -- I am not going to specify to avoid squabbling -- and he and his generation are MUCH more conservative than his parents.

The world has forgotten how far to the right it has drifted. There have been huge gains, but within a context, a larger context, of a more conservative ethos. I think it's changing as the demographics change. But it will be a long time before we replace what we have lost -- genuinely radical and liberal movements and institutions. And, of course, they will look and be different. And probably the most creative and powerful will come from outside the United States and Western Europe.

I have a healthy fear of the conventional because I know the real prison that it used to be for women and others. And it still can be. How many states now can we not get an abortion in? State after state is turning back the clock on these and other issues. Is it the last gasp of a dying ideology? Yes. But it still has power. Tremendous power.

It's alarming to me when something conventionally sexist is not seen or defended. I do think that is true of this phrase. As it reads, not as its creators intended it. Masculine of Center. How can its connotations be extracted from the context of policing gender, the context of bullying, the context of gender privilege? Is there any place where policing, bullying and gender privilege do not obtain? So casually invoking them, even when that is the opposite of your intention, should, IMO, send off alarm bells. Perhaps it only does in the old who can recall when gender oppression was the norm and objecting to it got you laughed at or hurt.

Compare that to queer, an umbrella term that came into use when I was already an adult. It was a rehabilitated pejorative. It had the power to appall. To frighten. Its connotations included glory holes and jail cells and bashings. And we took all that power away from our oppressors and turned it back on them.

Activism guided by ethical, moral, generational correctness
 

I have to leave for work soon, but wanted to briefly comment on two things:

Do you think our conservative ethos is born of ethical, moral and a generational correctness (it used to be called PC, but that term feels antiquated and inflammatory to me?) That we want change, but rather than the huge sweeping rallies of the 60's/70's and the subversive violence of the 80's/90's that protested many huge issues , Activism today is directed toward its specific causes? Activism then feels less radical due to its smaller scales though more frequent incidents...

And I also wanted to throw out there, I dont know how to proudly claim Butch, without setting up an exclusionary dynamic. If the term Butch is white-centric, and if using the word Butch sets up a bias whats my next best-practice for disassembling that exclusion without diluting my identification ??? Or is it the ultimate goal to NOT have discriptors and live in a fluid world of humans "being"... in which case having NO words or descriptors is a slippery slope to homogeny.

my head is still trying to wrap around the white-centric dynamic of claiming Butch , when I was stuck on the white-MALE-centric association of Center !

I think we (the community) can claim "Butch" without accepting and supporting the white-centric spaces it creates for folks of Color.

Greyson gave a fine example about how "Butch" has not always been white-centric. So maybe we need to look at when that happened? When did "Butch" start meaning "MoC Not Welcome"?

I saw it suggested on the Dash site a couple of times but it was sandwiched in between the idea that the entire Butch/Femme community was racist on some level i.e. "too white", and our need to expand, as a community, not only our verbiage but definition of "Butch".

When I try to think about the juxtaposition and parallels of "Femme" and "Diva" or "Femme and "Lady", I recognize "Diva" and "Lady" as a label used by several women of Color I know who use those labels to recognize the intersection of their gender and race. I also know many women of Color who use "Femme" (or "Daddy")

Does "Femme" support a white paradigm as well?

Thoughts
 

I'd like to also remind you (general) that MoC can be claimed by Womyn and Femme's, I personally could identify with my MoC. That's the thing with gender and its fluidity as is with masculine/feminine.. It's not owned by F or M regardless of race..

I want to say that this medium is always a hard place to talk through and listen too different folks. I do not know most folks on here and can not know intention or tone. This topic gender and race can and often times feel personal, I try to use I statements and use information that I have read or heard to inform my unlearning. I am not here to attack, change or shame anyone. I am here to add to the knowledge pile so folks can make there own decision and I too can learn from you all as well.

I think Butch is not exclusively a white centered word. I think what I was saying about the tools of white supremacy included the concept of PC. That term for me is again born of the power to name. It arrived from my thinking from those on the right in a push back against all the folks demanding rights, access and visibility. I think there is a big difference with self-reflection of how one benefits or does not benefit from a system set up to create difference to make a few rich and powerful at the expense of others. Capitalism is at the root of the system of difference, the need for a working class, the need to believe there is such a thing as a middle class. If you get a pay check it does not matter how many zero's are on it you work for someone else. Very few live off the interest of the money made by others. But I digress sort of, their is a link to all of this and that is power and money.

It has taking me many years to understand how white guilt and liberal politics often keep me from seeing my own privilege.Because they are self-policing tools to keep me in support of difference. Again it is hard to both be white and work against structural racism. But we all have internal bias's that must be worked on, and us white folks are not the only folks that have racial judgements, and as I say that I want to be clear there is no such thing as reverse racism which works in a power-over model racial bias while also making generalizations base on melatonin operates is many different combinations of power and access.So I have no shame about being white, what I do have is sadness about how racism hurts me too. I have understand the difference between individual and structural racism, I must understand that my experience though similar in some ways is different because of how being white works in the world, I must keep working on not being defensive when I am called out, and I must not feel shame for something I did not create. White guilt is a PC concept that paralyzes the work we as white folks must do. Being Butch is not the same, I may be seen as a white man when I walk in the restroom, I am not read as a POCman though I may have some similar experiences like the "look that I can not read, pervert etc" I am not read the same as many of POC friends who id Butch friends. That is for me important to remember in these conversation is two or more things can be happening at once, and the yes I can understand those things that are similar, I do not know what is is to not be white, so I must believe those who are and telling me where they are have additional experiences and not personalize it, but hear it. Anyway, One group of folks I know doing great work is Dr. Shakti Butler and her organization at Worldtrust.org. THe have use film as an educational platform, they have short clips on the web page that are helpful and I watch all the time because I hear something new each time. We all come to this at different moments in our lives, what we do not get to do is arrive at some finish line that gives us a certificate in race or gender awareness, because like everything else, all white folks do not have the same story, we have being white in common but how that works in our lives is not the same in California as it is in Texas or New York, some of us have single parents, some of us have lost our parents. So, my story criss crosses yours. I use this example sometimes to help understand with compassion and not shame, I still have both my parents, so when a friend says they lost one or both at anypoint in there like, my first empathetic PC response is to say I understand, because I have lost friends, grandparents, but that is not the same as losing a parent so my words are hallow with good intention. I have learned to say, I do not know what is like to lose a parent, I do understand the grief process as I have had loss, How can I support you. It seems a simple thing but when applied across race and gender and most everything, it allows me to not know and yet have something in common. I hope that made sense. Anyway off I go thanks to all adding to my growth

Re progressive and lgbt organizations and race.

First, I am out of touch and intend to stay that way -- in terms of being active in groups and organizations (there are a few exceptions, none of them queer).

But when I was more involved and active, it was nearly impossible to keep a representative number of PoC participating. Our privilege showed. When people of color took came around, they were welcomed, but shit still happened. There were exceptions, but people still cycled in and out. People always do. But a larger proportion of the PoC didn't stay.

I think the fights that sometimes occurred around these issues were educational. But they weren't transformative of the organizations I was involved in. Two sorta got taken over by POC in a direct effort to make changes on this issue. Anyway, these groups changed. But when white leadership and a white majority were maintained, there was never enough growth in the groups *I* have been involved in to make it a welcoming enough environment that PoC did not come and go like there was a revolving door.

I don't think there is any agreement, much less consensus, that there's anything white-centric or exclusionary about claiming 'butch'. I know many POCs who proudly claim it, and have no mixed feelings whatsoever about the word or the ID. As explained above, there are POCs who don't, for their own reasons, use the word for themselves. This discussion does seem to break along generational lines.

If a group of people decided to stop using the word 'femme' to describe themselves, and came up with a new identifier FOR THEMSELVES, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to change my own ID in response.

I always thought it made a lot of sense that many men -- African American ones I knew or knew about in Detroit -- did not claim gay even though they were out and exclusively homosexual. I have seen African American gay men in social and political groups suffer the slings and arrows of subtle and not so subtle racism. Even with their friends. It wasn't all the time, but there was never a time that they could anticipate when it would be over, when they could imagine it not coming up again.

I have had my own issues with the lgbt community, but it has been a home of sorts. I hate it that for many, because they are PoC, that never happened. But it's a fact -- of my generation anyway. And I respect the decision to NOT identify as gay. Again, one of the people I knew who did that organized the Hotter than July festivities for a few years -- the Black Gay Pride celebration. So he was not in any way not out. It was a statement, his ID. And I respected it.

Sorry. I missed this till now. Yeah, I think it has been harder to recognize what is radical and what is not. Some of it is scale. I don't know.

The conservatism has nothing to do with political correctness, but is a larger cultural force -- worldwide. I recall when ACT-UP still seemed like yesterday, but all the LGBT activism you could see was the HRC and the beginnings of marriage equality. It left a bitter taste. But things are changing. We can see more clearly the cracks in the edifice of late capitalism. Thanks to harsh realities like the recession and the effects of global warming, but also thanks to the Arab Spring, the Occupy Movement, and even that horrible election season.

BUMP BUMP BUMP
 

Yes, sort of.

I'm not fond of the term, but it doesn't bother me either.

I can relate to the thinking that 'butch' belongs to a specific group (i.e. Caucasian). I am Asian/Mexican but I came of age at a time when "butch" was more inclusive. So I'll continue to use butch (and the less popular androgynous) for myself and let others use what is most comfortable to them.

As to the ire about MOC taking away/replacing butch as an identity: I don't think it does, it doesn't take away from mine but YMMV. I'm not entirely clear why someone elses preferred identification should impact mine.

I did want to bring this back to the OP's original questions,and since I'll screw up multi-quoting I'll copy/paste her questions.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it?
I do believe it's more accepted in the younger POC community. But I also think those who ID as Stud, Macha, and Aggressive prefer to use Stud, Macha, and Aggressive before they use MoC.

Do you like it? Would you adopt it?
Already answered. But there is one caveat, I may grow to like it more and later find that I could/would adopt it.

Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?
I think the intent is to be more inclusive and not rejection/replacement. However I also believe any attempt to create an umbrella term will be met with dissatisfaction by some.

Loren

Peaches and Edna
 

In my reading today I ran across this. It is about an article ran in Jet Magazine in October 1970. Two African American women in Chicago got married. The term butch or femme is not used but neither is the terms "stud" and masculine of center.

I was 16 back then and just beginning to hang out with the other butches and femmes I was meeting that were in my age group and coming out. When I saw this photo of Peaches and Edna it took me way back. This is what I remember when coming out. POC Butches and Femmes were here but not in positions of leadership in the Women's Movement.

One of my points in all of this is to give others a glimpse of what it was like for POC working class lesbians, butches and femmes. Below are two links to this story. In the Jet Archives site you will see on the same page a piece about interacial marriage just beginning in Maryland. Look where we are today. It has gotten better but not good enough, yet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ijc...arriage&f=true

http://www.buzzfeed.com/saeedjones/j...edding-in-1970

I have seen the term used a lot on tumblr with the under 25 kids cautiously coming out as "not feminine". I read their blogs and I love all the new fashion sites they are building, taking notes from DapperQ and others.

I'm for whatever people want to use. I know way too many people that do not believe they are butch or want to use the term. For them, it means something else. I used to argue with partners "but you *are* you are just misunderstanding what butch means..."
No, to me butch IS an umbrella term. to them it is *not* and they don't wish to use it. Just like many people in the UK find the term "butch" to actually mean "american masculinity" (not all, but a good chunk of people I knew in london) and thus came up with their own.

I cam home to find all these women who I would say had a more "rugged" style masculinity expression than the ones in uk, france and netherlands and yet they do not see themselves as butch... but they know they ain't no girl. I called them boydykes, they even fidgeted at that. Nothing they could gab onto makes them comfortable. But MoC they nod at, ok yeah, of course.

It does not hold up under deconstructive scrutiny but ... so the fuck what? there's a ton of people out there that actually really need open terms, like genderqueer and MoC. Who am I to pick their terms apart like femme has been ripped at over the time I have used it?

There is no way I'm going to do that to someone else's like what was done to me. Femme torn apart like some label terminology, politically deconstructed and chewed and put on the table to show me just how weak it was.

not gonna do that to a term that other people need or want. Centre of a line that I don't believe exists? so what. it works. I get the metaphor. I understand the gesture that is trying to be made and the hand signals.

I personally dn't think "Masculinity"is a great word either as I don't think many of my partners wanted to adopt the term. they wanted their own word for what they projected but there wasn't one. so in lew of that word they grudgingly accept that is just the category people see it under. A gesture for a poor language.

That's what MoC is, to me. it's an attempt to decribe something in brief terms so that people will "get it."

if someone called themself "FoC" - have at it. I don't own femininity. if they want to include me in a metagroup? meh. sure. no skin off my nose. it doesn't stop me from going to school or wearing what I do or loving who I love.

I dunno, call me a fucking waffle if you want. Doesn't change anything. A rose is still what it is no matter what you call it. And the same goes for me.

And I think it's great there is more space for people, especially the young ones, to come out into while they find their feet.

I'm going to a massive dragking show on saturday and it will be full of tomboys, androgyne-boys, bois, MoC, genderqueer and all kinds of people who in my brain are butch, but for them, are very happy being called something they don't feel has any rules around it. And it makes them more comfortable, then I'm happy.
I still see them as I always have when they are in bed with me, can't help it, I came out when I did so to me, butch is the umbrella term. But I keep that to myself and don't force anyone to adopt what their dictionary says doesn't fit.

their definition is waaayyy different than mine but I gave up arguing that mine was better and right. it's just mine is all.