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i think it sucks that most often times when a conversation like this goes down because a person decides they want to impression upon a community some kind of ism that works for them, and they go into defensive mode and conveinently pull out their native american status. i for one find it offensive and a form of deflection that enables them to be less accountable for their ist and ism views.
however beautiful Arizona may be, i commend our community members for packing up their chuck wagons and leaving the bullshit behind. it had to be a strategically rough decision and i for one feel lots of admiration for their actions to get the hell out of a state that racially profiles their citizens and their tourist visitors!!! ohhhh and Arizona has always been a racist state...in 1991 the governor there decided to no longer recognize martin luther king day. i think his name was Mecham!!! ohhh and russell pearce i think is his name, an Arizona law maker that supports the white supremacy group National Alliance. i think they cosponsored and helped write the bill. Public Enemy did a song about it back in the 90's...i heard the first time when i went to see them in atlanta. |
Dear Cody, I truly understand the love you have for your state. I kind of compare it to the love I have of my family; though there are some in the family who are homophobic, racist and lack compassion for others. They make me angry. They make me sad. They embarrass me. I still love them but I resent when someone points out to me the fact that some people in my family are severly flawed. I just try to work on them telling them about their offensive behavior and hope they will change.
So hang in there. Try to make changes in the voting booth and continue to be supportive of your friends who are POC!!! |
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Sparkle, We both live in Mass, and I'd venture to say we are both educated voters and consumers. One thing that always amazes me in any argument, is that the word MYTH is used by all sides. Myth and Truth both contain elements of accuracy depending on which side of the fence you are on, and which side of a cause you are on. Being we are both from Mass, I will use your "myth that undocumented persons are not given free housing or health care". Obamas Aunt. See article here....http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100921/...s_obama_s_aunt Fact or myth? She says we gave her housing and health care when she was supposed to be deported. Think the taxpayers footed the bill for this or do you think Kenya did? All it takes is one story of truth, directly from one person, to make a "myth" not a "myth". And, as an educated voter and consumer, do you check the laws of every state you do business with? Mass still has a few not well known laws on the books that could be seen a detrimental to one group or another. Does this mean you dont spend money in your home state? My point is simply, this is a complex issue that people are most comfortable making a simple issue. And it is very easy to poke holes in "holier than thou attitudes" simply because, people being people, provide the very ammunition needed to do so. |
Which leads me to wonder if ALL of the other *white* Presidents were ever investigated as much as our Black President.
I don't believe W was ever asked for his papers, or proof of birth cerficicate. Racial profiling became a top priority once our President was black, it just got worse. :2cents: |
I live in Texas and would have mixed feelings about a thread aimed at boycotting Texas because I do love my state. But sometimes being on the side of justice is to be at odds with the government and the majority of citizens within one's home state. Texas has passed some terrible laws and is capable of passing a law very similar to this one. Despite my love love love of my state, I would support any measure that would bring a greater level of justice to my home. To me that means staying and fighting injustice as long as my life and livelihood are not at severe risk. I cannot defend Texas when it comes to state-sanctioned racism, xenophobia, religious intolerance, homophobic and transphobic intolerance, the death penalty, the arrest of the homeless, the criminalization of poverty, the lack of services for the mentally ill, the state of the prison system, the revisionist and propaganda-filled history taught in our public schools, the fundamentalist religious beliefs that embrace intolerance, bigotry and violence. I love my state and would be sensitive to a thread criticizing Texas or threatening the economic well-being of this state, but I hold justice as a higher value than state pride. Many people have chosen to leave Arizona rather than be faced with the very real dangers of continuing to live there, but I would encourage anybody who feels privileged enough to stay in the state to really work their hardest toward making it a just, compassionate, neighborly place to live and/or visit rather than putting one's effort into defending the truly indefensible actions of arizona's racist policies.
It's the people who stay who have the most power to use their power as voters, as citizens and as consumers to make Arizona (or any other home state) a place of justice, equality and neighborliness. "I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." -James Baldwin |
I, too, live in Arizona. However, even though yes, I can read, I haven't lived here long enough to have an opinion about local politics.. yet. I refuse to gain all of my "knowledge" from reading articles and other peoples' opinions.
However, I do think Cody is and has been bashed for his opinions. And I do think much of what he has said has been taken out of context and pounced upon. Someone stated that they wanted to see Arizona collapse. Really? So, all the people who voted against the current government should go down in flames too? Unbelievable. |
I want Arizona to feel the full economic effects of choosing racial injustice and intolerance and I hope the effects are palpable and that their cause is clearly discernible.
I feel the same way about Texas. That's the only way a capitalist democracy can move toward justice when the majority of the state votes for a xenophobic and racist government. When people vote to support racist government in order to have more for themselves. That is truly selfish. And for people who fought against these laws, I hope they continue to fight for justice. Sometimes justice means acknowledging that you yourself do not deserve the biggest cut of meat. Sometimes justice means giving up privilege and learning to share. It means advocating for equality even if doing so means you yourself have to give up some privilege. |
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Brewer's scum for more than just 1070, though. Local reporters have been investigating her and her office's connections to private prison firms. It seems that her administration is deeply connected with those firms. Not only are they working to privatize all of the prisons, they were connected to the writing of 1070, which gives them more business in the private prisons they already have in the state. Bottom line - 1070 is all about putting money in Brewer's cronies pockets. Typical republican crap - money matters and screw everything and everyone else. |
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I agree with your point - this issue is not a simple one; it is indeed very complex. My post was neither meant to be an exhaustive discourse nor a simplifying of an multi-layered socio-economic & global issue. It was meant only to convey, in a neutral tone, my opinion on the subject of boycotting Arizona and to express my very passionate concerns about the dangerous and pervasive beliefs held by a huge portion of our population about undocumented people. An important sidebar comment: I believe strongly in the importance of socialized medicine and believe that every person (regardless of race, ethnicity, class, age, ability, religious belief, gender, gender identity or sexual orientation, immigration status OR insurance coverage) has a right to medical care. Full stop, no exceptions. I also agree with what I think you were saying - that there are always exceptions to the rule. That is why I did not say (for example): No Undocumented Immigrants ever (have ever, will ever) have recourse to public funds and support (housing, disability, food stamps etc). I don't believe in, and I try hard not to make statements that are absolutes. Absolutes beg exceptions. While I appreciate your attempt to debunk my myth-debunking :) I have to point out that the news article you cite is not about an undocumented person receiving benefits, it is about a person who arrived in the country as asylum seeker who was ultimately granted legal status. In the interim (between her arrival, first denial and ultimate success at obtaining status) she was never illegal or undocumented. She was documented from the moment she applied for asylum. In the article she is cited as being "illegal", the use of "illegal" is irresponsible and inaccurate journalism. Mrs. Onyango went through an extensive and lengthy legal system which included a denial, a deportation order and legal appeals which lasted over ten years, during which time she was not granted public housing nor disability support. She was, however, given medical care when she had a medical emergency but then went on to live in homeless shelters and battled a crippling disease. I, for one, am incredibly relieved that at some hospital in Boston they did NOT throw her out on the street when she was most in need. Regardless, as I said, there are always exceptions to absolutes. I'm quite sure someone else on this forum could come in here and tell me that they know someone who knows someone who illegally crossed a border and managed to trick several government social services agencies and obtain a free house and benefits, and lived the life of reilly at the US tax payers expense. My opinions about the pervasiveness and dangerousness of these myths (as I see them) is based on my personal and professional experience. *I* have personally been on the sharp side of immigration bureaucracy and I have worked with 1000s of people from around the world in similar (and FAR FAR FAR WORSE) situations than my own. The belief that all immigrants are economic migrants determined to swindle honest hardworking "legal" citizens from their resources is prevalent not only in the US but also UK, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Australia (to name but a few countries). I think it is scary and I believe the truths of these beliefs need to be redressed. To my mind, Arizona's legislation embodies all that I find most disturbing about these beliefs. As to boycotting a place, you are quite right, if I were to boycott every state and nation that has legislation on their books that I find unjust - I don't know where in the world I could live (never mind travel as a tourist). I can not boycott every state nor every nation; just as I can not fight for every political or ideological belief I have - I have to pick & choose my battles, my boycotts and which "issues" I expend my resources on. Immigration Rights (which to my mind exemplifies my beliefs about basic human rights) - is one (of a few) that I choose. ps. my tone isn't intended to be holier than thou or holier than anyone, but I accept that my voice can be read that way, particularly when I dive in to a topic I so passionately care about. |
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The articles we all posted about what was going Arizona contain nothing but facts, what your Governor did, tried to do and has been doing is something we did not make up, lie about, and distort. When cody came upon this thread he was clueless to what was going on in his own state. Here is the exchange: Quote: Originally Posted by Nat http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif Panelists: Arizona SB 1070 has had profound impact on Native Americans since the bill became law, racism has become legitimized, and violence against Native peoples "is more blatant than ever." Recently, "tribal members out in the desert chopping wood have been handcuffed and beaten because they didn't have any identification on them," he said. Although the people were on their tribal land, he noted, "somehow the border patrol saw this as a legitimate way to detain people and abuse people violently." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote: Originally Posted by Cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it. Quote: Originally Posted by cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote: Originally Posted by AtLastHome http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif The article is by Native American spokespeople and stems from a panel of Native Americans as part of a discussion among Native activist leaders. It isn't from a news broadcast depicting one specific news event. Now, I do remember that Gov. Brewer did take back her initial statements about headless bodies in the desert due to criminal Latino immigrants a couple of months back. That seemed to be a rumor and entirely false. Good she cleared that up. He dismissed it by comparing it to a one squeaky wheel being overheard in a group of wheels. Then this morning he comes in and says Quote: Originally Posted by Cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif gawd i dont like this thread... az is my home and i love it.. i dont always like what the gov. does here.. but there is so much more to this state that i will not boycot.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this.. Now, had he read the whole thread from its inception he would see that it was started to discuss what was happening (truths) in AZ with its law that lead and would of lead to racial profiling. People aren't saying everyone in AZ should perish, die, or disappear. We aren't denying it's beauty and ethnic history. What we did do is discuss what everyone should be discussing when it comes to legal human rights. Once we turn a blind eye to a law that profiles one particular *look* of people we are headed for some incredible fucked up trouble. No one is jumping Cody or saying Cody shouldn't be here etc etc. What I do see is people who are passionate express themselves about what is going on and its injustice. It kills me when someone says something that is going to get an unpopular response use the deflective *I am getting piled up on* defense. FFS cody came up in here using terms such as "that look" and brushing it off with the claims of Native American heritage and state love etc etc. It's ridiculous to cry *pile on* when you say something that may or may not be read as offensive. It would be as ridiculous if I went to the nilla there and said: "gawd i dont like this thread... BDSM is my life and i love it.. i dont always like what the all the play parties and there different rules.. but there is so much more to BDSM that ya'll don't know about so why do you need this space?.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this... WOW how rude." I am pretty sure and I would expect my ass would get handed to me for coming up in a space and pointing my finger at folks. I am no holier than though, hell I am nowhere close to this term, what I am is passionate about this matter not only because it's the right thing to do, but it affects me since I am one of those people this state considers undesirable. Oh as for the economic demise wished upon your state- Sometimes we need to give up things to get what we must have. I would rather have nothing then stand by and watch someone stripped of their human rights, I sometimes envy those who pick comfort over what is right, till we are all willing to hurt a lil, bleed a lil, lose a lil, then nothing is ever going to change. |
I find it offensive that it is implied that anyone who lives here (in Arizona) or stands up for it is somehow a part of "this racist state".
The entire state is not racist; I don't even agree that the majority of people who live here are racist. I, do, however, believe that our political system is fucked up and people get elected for ALL KINDS of reasons, not necessarily because they are popular or right or hold a majority opinion. The same goes for laws written by these people. I lived in Colorado when Amendment 2 passed - the first anti-gay legislation to ever get on a ballot. I didn't hate or blame the entire state of Colorado. The wording on the ballot was confusing; the conservative right banded together and got everyone in a frenzy - so it passed. I don't believe in boycotting the entire state of Arizona, I didn't believe in it before I moved here either. I do believe in fighting the problems, instead of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" so to speak. |
Sparkle, Thank you for your response. I understand your positions better now. One of the complexities with this situation which worries me is when I hear people calling to boycott a state (or anything else for that matter) and wishing harm come to any group (or government) because of their beliefs. The reasons it bothers me are two fold. First, the vehemence with which these words are spoken are full of anger and "hate". Hate of hate is still hate. If one wants a more rational approach to issues facing the world at large, using hate to combat hate just seems to breed more hatred. It doesnt make sense to me as an effective method. Second, when I hear people talk about boycotts....sometimes this is effective, providing it is aimed at the correct places. If there arent enough dollars coming into Arizona because of a boycott, who do you think is going to be hurt most by this? Will the governor not have a place to call home or have an empty belly? NO. The very people you are trying to advocate for are the very people who get hurt when the government (and I use the term loosely here) doesnt have the money for the programs that people rely on. I understand the outrage and I understand the issues around racial profiling. What I don't understand is how the methods being promoted to deal with it are any better than the initial issue. In this respect, the government is saying there are "acceptable losses" in dealing with immigration issues. And the response is saying there are "acceptable losses" in boycotts. Both are throwing the groups in question under the wheels of the bus in their quest to be right. It is a very complex issue for many countries. And no one, yet, seems to have a viable answer. But, I am pretty sure, crucifying the people you are trying to protect, from either standpoint, isnt it. |
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My comment about the economic demise wished upon this state has nothing to do with me personally. I can go anywhere; I'm not tied here, I don't have family here. This is not to say I would run away, but I do have other options if things get crazy. I do stand up for human rights, and I'm rather vocal about it. My point was that I'm concerned about the people you all claim to be so concerned about. What will happen to THEM if Arizona collapses? Do you think they'll just dust themselves off and start over??? Do you really think an economic collapse of this state is going to magically fix everything? |
I think that the state won't collapse as you say, but I do think if the people, you know that 70% who agree with that racist law, feel the economic sting of the boycott then it is well worth the fight. You see those are the folks who don't care about the welfare of their brothers and sisters, and are likely the vary people who would deny you your rights.
So yes the political pressure of the boycott will have consequences, and I sure hope folks start paying attention to what is happening because of racist laws. We are not a free society if the least of us are not free. |
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I completely understand your concern. You live in Arizona. MY GOD - I would be panicking just about now, if my state was potentially going to see a collapse. I believe your state is in major trouble. I would start looking for an escape route. Truly! If New York were to instill such a law on the books. I can promise you this. I would start planning on leaving New York. But not before I got off my ass and fought the fight. I would not give my money to a state which discriminates and is no better than those who practice ethnic cleansing. Just because we are not killing people - The propaganda which your state is putting forth, such as the billboard Snow posted earlier - Is license to KILL! As a member of a country which allows free speech (an oxymoron of sorts). I am embarrassed when I tell people I am american. I am ashamed. And one day when my kids are older - I will leave. And the people who are against the bill. I am sorry for them. Truly sorry for them. I am hoping they are out looking for jobs in other states. I am also hoping they are campaigning in full force against this. However, we do know this to be true. So many bitch and cry and stomp their feet - but they never use their voices. Julie |
Corkey, I hope you know how much I respect you even tho we don't always agree on issues. This is really bugging me because we all seem to be operating on the idea that the problem is because of everyone else. It is not US, it is THEM.... however you see us and them. The us and the them is a nasty way of looking at unpleasant issues. Because sometimes, WE are THEM or US and it "aint" pretty. Example......have you seen the movie "Flag Wars"? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359281/ It is a fascinating wake up call when groups that are oppressed actually become the oppressors. In this documentary, a Black neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio was invaded by white, gay and lesbian people. The butch real estate agent did her best to force the city to enforce building codes. In doing so, she singlehandedly, threw people out of their family homes because they lacked the resources to bring the properties up to code and, because they were poor and Black, they couldn't get loans to cover the costs. Hence, here is a neighborhood of cheap homes ripe for the picking by white persons of queerness who acted like vultures in snatching up as many underpriced properties as they could. It sickened me to watch my brothers and sisters act like unfeeling robots focused only on the attainment of property without any regard as to how they came by it or what deviousness was used for them to have this opportunity. But, were the queers out there saying hey, this isnt right? This isnt ethical? Did our queer buds give a crap about the people they displaced? Did we queerfolk care that we were taking advantage of people who had no means to defend themselves or their homes? Were we out there marching and protesting and calling for boycotts? Nope. This is US doing to THEM, just as WE have been done against. This was, quite simply, the most disgusting display of white priviledge, white audacity, queer audacity, and simple inhumanity. My point is before we start pointing fingers, assigning blame, and acting all righteous and stuff....we need to take an inventory of ourselves. It is really easy to be liberal and loving and concerned for equality in a vacuum like this. It is quite another to live it out there in the real world where we are faced with difficult, complex, sometimes disgusting choices. Life is just not that simple. Answers are just not that simple. |
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These are the facts of the matter. If you choose to ignore it, by all means do so, but I'll thank you not to assume that I will do the same. It is simple discrimination in any form is vile. I shall not participate in it. I therefore boycott Arizona, and any company doing business in Arizona. |
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