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But in general i am uncomfortable with talking about how femmes are not doing it right somehow. i don't know. |
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It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here. If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious. In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'. Dylan |
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Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue. |
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You know, as I read this, I have to say that it fits with my experience in terms of Transmen I know in real-time as opposed to online. But, I really don't have a lot of on-line experience overall. The old site (which I no longer participate on) and this one are the only ones I have ever actually joined. I have a FB account, but that is for keeping up with people in my life that don't live near me. there are some people there that I met via this community both on and off-line. Some are trans (both FtM's & MtF's). I don't hear this continual referral to the used to be a woman in real-time in either the queer or straight (as they prefer to call themselves) couples I do real-time interaction with. Could this just be because I know their history and they know I know their history? Is it related to my not being trans? Something else I can think of is that by and large it is the FtM's (or MtF's) I know personally that use Transman or just trans to describe themselves except for the 2 I have known since childhood (so they are very much of a different generation than a lot of transpeople here and do mot identify as queer). My inter-gendered, female identified cousin just calls herself a woman, however (again, she is in her mid 70's). I have had conversations with femmes and dated a few that do bring up dating transmen and unfortunately, they are often negative about this. Which, I guess is why they are dating me perhaps (who knows)! It might be that our community actually has grown in that trans comes up more freely due to more awareness. It does feel like that online, the trans distinction is often made by femmes. But, it could simply be, again, about awareness and also trying to be inclusive as trans issues are interwoven on the site. And transmen here usually identify themselves as trans in their profile- they don't usually put Man or male in the blank to the left! Probably because this is a B-F queer site. In terms of outing, I think that is up to the Transperson and how they want to handle it. I would hope that this would be respected. What you say about this being due to some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away... motivation is quite disturbing and I think goes to the dissing of femmes that date/partner with transmen. All that being said, I feel like I can't generalize about this because I haven't read every single post on every single thread. Also, I don't know about your experience as a Transman and mine as a butch woman play into it. Do most transmen want to just be referred to as men and not trans? Do they want their past as a woman to be hidden? It seems that many transmen here want this to be discussed because many know that there could be butches struggling with gender issues that need to feel OK about asking them questions about their experience. I think I am in a state of puzzlement at the moment.... but this is an interesting discussion, but I am wondering about individual differences among transmen about it all. I am also wondering about the formerly-female situation and the fact that most transmen have never been female, actually. I am speaking to those that did indeed feel that they were in the wrong body, and always felt/knew they were male. I would think that to be referred to as formally-female here, would be quite disturbing to the individual. |
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I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change. What I know for sure as a woman that when I'm in public with my guy SOCIETY sees us as queer. We are not given straight privilege. Our experiences in the world are no different then the other Femme-Butch dynamic couples. I also know that the world doesn't see him as a man and that he sure can't celebrate his maleness out there either. Some Male IDs, FTMs, TGs and Trans can pass as men so can some butches. Some can all the time and some not. What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time. |
I thought this was interesting.
http://gayrights.change.org/blog/vie...eople_is_bogus And I thought this was really interesting too. It is more of a book review but it states some of the things that I have heard very well. http://veganideal.org/content/our-bo...sexual-healing |
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And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person. i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration. Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men. i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them. i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend. And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that. |
*I* happen to Own 2 guys, Nico and Grant. I don't see them as this brand spanking new version of *man* they are who they are, both with different journeys, stories and backgrounds. They are both members of our Queer community, be it here at home, or here on the interwebs. I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).
We don't face any problem regarding our Queerdom around town, or at any functions or any of the places we frequent. I do feel that maybe just maybe I sense a lil misandry going on just a touch. I hope that at least one will come in here and speak of his place and his right to be in this community. Nico does not have the allowance since when we talk about it here at home his head wants to explode so I would rather it not explode here and him get put in the corner THEN have to deal with me, which is by far worse. *I* this is me speaking from my me space, feel it to be oogy when expectations are put on these guys by ANYONE so when I see a post about glass slippers, and dual spirituality and how they are so sensitive cause they were women at one time... It oogs me out when I see it done to butches as well, cause lemme tell you, both my guys are sensitive, I AM NOT does this make me a guy? No... Both my guys clean, cook and make things comfy for me.. Does this make them female like? No... Both my guys are not the stereotypical masculines, I on the other hand for a girl am... That kind of fethisizing is creepy and just sets one up for failure... *I* don't limit myself to a specific kind of person to date, I like to date and fuck whomever I am attracted to that falls into our beautiful gender spectrum. Happens to be that I fell for a guy. I don't feel that this does not leave me a space here in BF Planet though I never really fell into the umbrella of butch femme relationships. I found and find them to be to stiffling for *me* though it does work for others!! *I* also get twitchy when I see men refered to as creepy crawlers and other names, here's why. I am a mother of 3 men, and frankly not all men regardless if they are queer, straight, gay, bi have faults, just as we do, not ALL men are going to be knuckle draggers, just as not all women fit into the whole *stepford* picture perfect kinda thang. I hope I really do that we can all agree that there is a place for the men in our community, and if they choose to have a thread where they go say whatever well we can either go read it and A. ignore it B. read it and start a thread discussing what is going on without being ugly and C. just be appreciative we have somewhere to go online That is all I have a carpet to clean. |
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I wonder if there is a difference when female ID'd butches do the same thing? I have seen that in real time. (And I know exactly what you mean about the adolecent celebration - I find that annoying too.) I also wonder if that is what celebration is really about? Hopefully someone can describe it better then I, as a woman, ever could. For me I see differences in gender. I don't see them as bad or good, just that they are. They are generalizations that apply to men and women. Not ALL men and women, but the majority - which is why the generalizations exist. Maybe the emasculation of Trans, male IDs, TGs and FTMs comes from that sense of having been wronged by a male dominated society in general? (sorry, I am thinking and typing at the same time so it may not make sense outside of my head.) I know that I was personally harmed by cis men. Badly. Beaten, raped, abused, kept from being promoted, ect. Yet, I don't hold those who were born in the wrong body responsible for what happened to me. Friend or not. I don't see them differently because of my personal experience with cis men. In fact I don't hold cis men in general responsible for what happened to me by other cis men. Can trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs be feminists? Is that at all apart of what sometimes happens with embracing maleness within our community? The expectation seems to be that in order to be a feminist one has to BE a woman, or happy about the fact that they were born a woman. Are feminist and Trans incongruant? Can women in our community tolerate trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs only on the periphery? Is there a sense that being trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs is a choice that people make thereby chosing to align with the "other" or "opposing" team? I don't really have the answers to these questions, but if I were sitting in a room with all of you I would be interested in having a discussion about all of these things. I do think about it often. And I know we see it play out right in front of us. |
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So, seriously, I was speaking across the spectrum. Again, queer is NOT just for women anymore Quote:
I get that your experience is different than mine. In my (me,me,me) personal experience, I have found the MOST sexist comments to have come from female ID'd butches who then use the excuse, "What? We're all women". That has been in real time as well as on these sites. I've found these comments even far more sexist than the comments made around me when I worked with roofers all day. So, we each have our own experiences...it doesn't squick me out when I see butches celebrating their butchness though. I mean, yeah, the sexist comments piss me off, but I don't find it inherent in butches celebrating their masculinity or butchness. I find it inherent in certain individuals. Dylan |
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I can respect that. In my experiences, men pretty much celebrate being men in a vast majority of spaces in all of the world. A lesbian ID'd female (woman?) doesn't necessarily want to come to a queer site with a focus on queer/lesbian females and sit right in the middle of it there too. I'm grateful there *is* room here for all of us. It doesn't offend me that some members choose to steer clear of the trans zone (or whatever). It's nice to have the choice, I think. Respectfully, Thinker |
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Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch. You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive. Quote:
Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog) Dylan |
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I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis. Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite. As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying. If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world. |
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I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you. I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard. |
Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.
Jus' Sayin', Dylan |
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I have to ask cause I am taking a break and I am curious..
What would happen if a guy went into a FIB thread and started this sort of dialogue? What would be the response would they be welcomed? I truly am curios here..:o |
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It would be fanfreakingtastic if we could have a discussion where you two DIDN'T feel the need to do this. Whatever the hell "this" is... |
By all means have your conversation. Enjoy.
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