I hear you saying that as a person with Traumatic Brain Injury, you are differently abled, and that you wish to be held accountable for what you say, how you say it, as well as how you behave. I hear you saying that you wish to be held accountable by the same standards of those who are not differently abled.

No no, I think I hear you!

I guess it's just a very emotive topic, and there are all kinds of issues feeding into it and surrounding it, and its meaning has so many different nuances and so many different connotations to different people. It's a challenging subject, but I think we're going somewhere with it.

I am saying that I want the same rules.

I am uncomfortable saying that there is only one way of accountability, because people communicate on a myriad of levels.

I am saying that I want the opportunity to be accountable.

That means I want to know if I've done something wrong. I don't want people to be afraid to tell me.

I also don't want everyone to erase all caring and compassion when doing so.

If I had not been thrown out of 10 occupational therapists? I would not have learned that my behavior was unacceptable. So it took me ten times, but then again I was cognitively around 5 or 6 years old. I am closer to my real age now, but it took years.

So usually I am able to learn in three or less. :)

thank you.
 

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;152040][quote=violaine;151949]


We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

yes, this site has rules, and yes, there are individuals here who have set boundaries.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no?

assumptions, no - & not 'all'.

We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

not exactly!

i'm not sure that i agree with you on the following: 'we all' have a knowing of what is right and wrong".

actually, some things may not be a matter of right or wrong, they may 'just be' - and without any kind of agenda.

i do like to ask for further clarification whenever i'm unsure on a topic, and hope not be read as being in the wrong, or out to start trouble.

ps- if i fork up, please let me know, and i will apologise.

Thank you Corkey. Yes, your opinion matters to me greatly.

Thank you to Urs. I think you are right about all kinds of issues feeding into it and the many nuances. I appreciate the reminder, because sometimes I get frustrated and my brain gets "flooded" which means that I have a hard time processing. I may be flooded right now.

I am gonna jump out on a limb here and give a specific example of how I try to apply that lens and I hope you don't mind my using it nor do I want anyone to think I am tooting my own horn....

Jess started a thread something about "What do you do". (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=840) SF, you misread the intent and popped off your response based on what you thought the intent was. I thought it rather dismissive and rather than pop off a one liner telling you that I thought you were being dismissive, I took the time and effort to post an explanation that expanded upon the OP. (#17)

You understood it then and went on to make a great post full of non-monetary suggestions.

Was this me giving you a pass? Not to me it wasn't. This was me taking into consideration what you have shared about having TBI and trying to find that different language to communicate the same as Jess. I think that this is the "with caring and compassion" of which you speak.

I think that as an online community, we do no differently than we do in our real communities and homes. I don't discount the lesser educated production worker any more than I want that worker to discount me. Their contribution to the community of our workplace is just as vital as mine.

I know that Snow is making reference to a specific individual and that must be a really tough place to be in.

I do think, however severely DA a person might be, they still have the same needs as those less DA or NT - they still deserve to be here and to contribute in their own ways and I think they still have to be accountable for their actions within the community. I do think that there are considerations and the endless explanations and repeated conversations to be done in order to assist those persons in being here.

To that end, what about a buddy system? What if there were a group of volunteers who rotated buddy duty? I know firsthand how taxing the repetitive explanations can be and how your patience is quickly drained. If there was a rotation of sorts, no one person would be overly utilized and it would give the DA person the opportunity to interact with others and perhaps, through hearing the same message in a different voice, it might just be the "Eureka!" moment.

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

I apologize if you thought I was out of line in my reference to you, I was merely trying to be supportive because its not like I can't read the posts between you and one individual who has declared themselves to be DA. If you have had these boundary issues with more than one DA person here, its not been apparent in the threads.

I thought my reference was one of empathy and went on to give an idea of how we as a community might be better able to be supportive of your reinforcing your personal boundaries while at the same time being supportive of the DA person.

Again, if this isn't germane to the conversation, I apologize and we clearly see this thread differently.

Some people do not have moments of clarity. In order for someone to change they have to understand the wrong. Just because SOME people have that ability doesn't mean that all do. I'm sure that in recovery you've heard "The capacity to be honest..." Not every addict or alcoholic has it. Everyone will eventually walk away from them and they will end up institutionalized, in jail or dead. This stems from CHOICES that they made.

With mental illness there is no choice to be made. Nor is there in developmental disability or some brain injuries or some disorders. That motivation to change that you speak of only comes with the ability to understand the underlying need for change - a level of self awareness that comes with the ability to rationalize and understand behavior and an ability to control that behavior. Also known as hitting bottom. It can be relative to the person that you are dealing with for lots of different reasons. Not everyone is aware and I promise that all the yelling in the world will not make someone able to understand when that ability doesn't exist. I think it's self centered to think that because I am enlightened - that I get it - everyone else must too so they must be making a choice to piss me off, annoy me, not act right.....then I can take that one step further and hold the world accountable to MY standard of right and wrong.

I have the luxury of choice. I can wake up tomorrow and CHOOSE how I will conduct myself in public. How I will interact with people, how I will wear my hair and what color my nails will be. I will choose to walk out the door just once. But what if I wake up tomorrow and believe that if I don't walk out the door perfectly 15 times that I will die? What if I can't walk out the door perfectly? What if you think that is stupid? Is it better to scream at me that it's stupid, cause me internal panic and conflict then force me out the door anyway because YOU know and that shit ain't gonna fly with you? People can and do kill themselves to stop the torment.

What if I believe that there are people who are trying to kill me? There is no uncertainty. I know it. I hear people that I know whispering that in my ears. I can smell the fear in a room. I see smoke. It's real to people who feel it, who see it. That is their reality. Go ahead and tell them they have a choice to come out from behind the couch. That it's not true. That no one is trying to kill them - it's all make believe. Then, come back and let me know how that worked out for you. I can tell you how it ends.

Or tell someone who is really 13 years old, even though she looks much older that she needs to put down her cell phone and get back to work. Tell her 30 times. Hell, go ahead and tell her 100 times. Treat her the same as everyone else. Rules are rules. Fire her for not listening like a 25 year old should listen because YOU said so. Sorry. That doesn't work for me. She is not 25, her brain doesn't function at the same level. There are rules for our society. By our societal standards she shouldn't even have a job. She can't even chew with her mouth closed. Not because she doesn't know she should, but because her brain can't focus on chewing AND keeping her mouth closed. That isn't funny. That is her reality. I celebrate her ability to have a job at all. I focus on what she does right. I will tell her and try to guide her, but telling someone all about themselves and their shortcomings when they don't have the ability to understand - seems abusive. Who really gets something out of that?

I wouldn't give someone making a choice to do something destructive a pass in the same way. I am talking about the ability to think, understand, comprehend and possession of a critical thinking ability. Not everyone has it. It's rather easy and privileged to think everyone should.

To me it similar to thinking everyone should just speak English or just move out of the projects if they want a better life. It IS that easy right? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people just "got it" and didn't live to annoy the rest of us people with all of our smarts and reasoning?

I appreciate you giving this example. There are totally days that I am not in good form and misread. There are days I don't have my loved ones to read my posts first.

That was one of those days. I would hope that you would give that consideration to anyone. Not just me. Because anyone can misread and pop off.

So no, I don't think that was you giving me a poss. That is not what I am talking about when I say a pass and I think that is where people are getting confused.

Had you taken the time and effort to explain the intent to me, and had I continued coming in and insisting that my interpretation was correct, and kept popping off shitty things? And not been held accountable (reported, pm'd, told in public or whatever) then that is where it becomes something I'd call a pass.

Clarifying ones point and clearing up a misunderstood intent is NOT giving a pass. I also truly hate to think that I got special treatment that you would not give the next person. I hope I am not being rude by saying that I can only remember as reading you patiently explain you point when others don't get it.

It's also a grayer area in the example that you gave because I don't think any rules were broken per se. I think that I was not thoughtful in reading the OP and rude in my reply. Now if I had come in and said: This is stupid. I think you're an asshole" would you have taken the same approach? What if I had continued? I would really hope that you would report me.

So in short, no I don't think you gave me a pass. That is not at all what I meant by giving a pass.

I hope this post gives a better feel for what I am trying to say?

I wish you wouldn't leave. I want to hear what you have to say.

Clarification: This thread is NOT about any one person. The only personal point of reference in the OP is about me. Adele.

Please do not make this thread about anybody, because it's not and that is not something that is okay to do.

Please do not assume that any one person is being spoken about, because that makes me really super uncomfortable .

I would like to think that most days, I give most people that same consideration.

I do think, however, that its a conditioned response based on parenting a DA child. I know that I have had to learn HOW to be that patient and compassionate. I know that not everyone has that skill set, especially NTs - they (at least the ones in my experience) have no reason to - until they do.

If you had continued a negative rant, I would probably have PM'd you and asked what the fuck your issue was. (How's that for my compassion LOL) I rarely report posts because, at the end of the day, I really do apply that 3F rule (if you dont fuck me, feed me (emotionally or sustenance) or finance me, you really dont have any influence in my life and I try to let it go quickly)

I dont think the answer to the mythical pass is to report posts. I think reporting is a tool - one of many and I think sometimes we are far too quick to hit that button rather than challenge ourselves to find that wave of communication that is mutual and brings understanding.

While we agree that no "rules" were broken, I didnt realize that you were only speaking of the "pass" specifically in rules/TOS terms. To me, the unspoken/unwritten "rules" are much more likely to be broken than the ones that have been clearly stated. I have found that my son (and other DAs) have more issue with the unspoken expectations of socialization far more often than the ones they know about.

Does it make sense that to me, the unspoken social skills/expectations about behaviors and interactions are more problematic than what is covered in the TOS?

As for the report button, that is one of three options I gave. Post back, PM or Report. Because situationally any of these things could be an appropriate response to the example that I gave.

Somtimes, I've heard something from a mod that I wasn't hearing from a member. The report button is not a death sentence to me. It's a valuable tool that can help sometimes.

While I understand where you are coming from social skills/expectations that is not what I am speaking of when discussing a pass.

Social skills and expectations are far too subjective to be "policed", and it would be impossible to apply the idea of giving a pass to somebody because it is so subjective. (to me. outside of my loved ones).

I was speaking about rules. Specifically.

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

Julieisafemme,

What a great post. I think that the people around us have a unique position that most others do not. Especially in an online venue.

My family (i'm a mom with three, now four kids) they were kind of freaked out by the me that came home from the hospital. I can honestly say that I am a completely different person now. They had to grieve just like I did, and that is not an easy concept (grieving the living) for kids.

My father did not believe in brain injury. Until he fell in the driveway and ended up with two brain surgeries and a brain injury. (the universe is funny like that). Today he understands because it is his reality.

So my family knows me in ways that nobody else ever will, and as loved ones that passes that we give each other are always on a different level than what anyone else would do.

I know that you do have to make choices every day. So do I. I have to take meds. I have to work hard to have a "day". It is a choice.

I hate mail. I get overwhelmed and cry. I have gone months without opening my mail. I do NOT get a pass. My lights get shut off, my gas, my cable, my phone...because that is the consequence of not opening my mail.

Still, I am choosing not to do it when I don't.

Thanks for sharing. So much. :bunchflowers: