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-   -   What every Femme should know... (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4663)

Kobi 02-23-2012 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apretty (Post 534108)
It's patronizing, pandering and least of all, heteronormative--Which is all great if I consent and but none of us did.

The title could have read, 'Here's where I degrade and patronize Femme and perpetuate female-feeble mindedness' and that's cool, I wouldn't have reason to read that thread.

I hope that helps your confusion.
LOL, I got that part. Kobi not that dense. Well sometimes. I understood why it might be insulting to some. I can also see it wasnt insulting to some. Perspective.

Julie 02-23-2012 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 534107)

Julie, thank you for answering. I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure it solves my confusion. Let me try it this way:

You wrote..."Being a Femme's Femme is more important than any Butch on this planet."

To me, this says, in order to be a Femme's Femme all Femmes are require to believe the sisterhood is more important than any Butch/partner/spouse. It sounds to be as a general statement alerting Femme's as to expected/required behavior of being a Femme's Femme. Is that different from just being a Femme?

Now this might not be what you meant. It might just be how I interpreted it.

Then you said:

"What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel."

And, now I am confused because the first statement, to me, indicated you were saying this is how a Femme was supposed to feel/believe/act in order to be a Femme's Femme.

And then you are saying we shouldnt ever tell someone else how to feel.

Are you clarifying what you meant to say initially i.e. this is just your take on it? Or are these 2 different standards? Or, have I now totally confused myself even more?
Kobi,

I think you are reading more into it than I intended.

I do not place Femme's higher on my love list than I place my partner who is Butch. I love my Femme sisters differently. My relationship with my Femme Sisters is different than my relationship with my partner and it is different than my relationships with Butches or Trans Guys for that matter.

Let's use this as an example (Femme's Femme) and why my Femme Sisters and that Sisterhood is more important. I am not saying that I would be okay with a Femme Sister if they did something hurtful and unkind. I would call them out and perhaps I would question my friendship with them.

Two Femme (Femme A and Femme B) friends are at a party. Femme (A) has made it known she has this crush on this Butch. All of her friends know this and the two of them have been communicating and slowly developing. While Femme A and Femme B are not great friends, they are social at times and are friendly. Femme B gets a look at said Butch and slowly makes her move. Femme B has the knowledge that Femme A is developing this relationship. Femme B does not care. Femme B has decided at all costs to move in and make her play.

A Femme's Femme would not do this. A Femme's Femme would respect Femme A and step back.

Another Example.

Femme A knows that Femme B and Butch are having relationship issues. She consoles and acts as a confidant to Femme B. Femme B cries in the ear of Femme A. Femme B is heartbroken when the relationship ends and in the process has shared intimate details with Femme A.

Femme A makes her move. She then slides in and friends the Butch. They start developing a relationship and not only has Femme B lost her partner, she has been manipulated and hurt by her friend Femme A.

A Femme's Femme would never ever ever do this.

My reference to what every butch should know, was a tad sarcastic. Perhaps why it appeared as a double standard and confusing. I would never assume to know what anybody should know. I only have my experiences. The only thing that I would ever possibly say that a Butch should know - Show your Femme respect. But I would say this to a Femme as well. Just be respectful, but hopefully everybody already knows this.

That is not to say, people should not date who they want and find love. But this is a tough one. Where do you draw the line?

Example:
I have shared many intimate details about my relationship with some of my Femme Sisters. My partner knows I share these things. Intimate details which have helped me process aspects of my relationship. DJ and I break up. My dear dear Femme Sister decides it is okay to pursue my ex without talking to me. Talk to me FIRST! But for god sake, give me time to heal.

I have fixed up friends with two of my exes. I thought... WOW, these two would make a great match. Different than the above example. I had a friend tell me years later, she ran into an ex of mine. How would I feel if they pursued something. I thought it great. After an ex and I broke up, and the wounds were still painful for me. A Femme I know called me and asked if I would put in a good word for her. Put in a good word? Are you kidding me? Not a Femme's Femme.

Make more sense?

Julie

Novelafemme 02-23-2012 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie (Post 534086)
Kobi,

I would like to answer your questions based on my perspective.

As we know, the title of any subject can hold as great a bearing as the actual content. Be it a post here on the planet, a magazine article or the title of a poem.

When I read, "What every Femme should know." My automatic response is to read what perhaps I am missing as a Femme. Hmmm, perhaps I have not learned something in my 50 years of life and my 33 years of being an identified Femme (though I have had some lapses for personal reasons).

I do know this from a personal standpoint. In my younger years, I thought I needed to be adored and worshiped by my partner to have any value. I had long hair, just so my partner could sweep the hair in front of my eyes and would see me as more feminine. When they spent money on me, I felt loved. I wanted to hear how lucky they were, because honestly... I did not have the value within myself to believe it on my own. I wanted to be told that I was beautiful and sexy, because I did not feel this inside. It gave me validation as a Femme.

When I cut off all my hair... I was challenged. Are you really a Femme? You and I have spoken on the phone Kobi. You have heard my voice Kobi and know that I have an extremely deep voice. Not a voice of a girl. I am often mistaken for a Sir. I have heard, are you really a Femme. Years ago, this would have shamed me. These are my issues... Not the issues of any other person that I am speaking about. When I lost (partial) my breast - I lost a sense of my femininity. I felt like I was not Feminine enough to wear the clothes that made me sexy at one time. What a Femme should know... For me. None of the above matters. If I can say out loud here, what other Femme's might be feeling, similar to what I have felt in the past. Then that is a good thing. I am a Femme. I have the knowledge about being a Femme that a butch just does not have. This is not to say, I have the knowledge what all Femme's should feel. Feelings are personal.

Regardless if the OP identifies as Male Identified, Heterosexual, Female or anything else which might fall in between, matters not to me. I responded based on the Title and then of course on the content.

I believe we are all entitled to our opinions. And in being entitled to our opinions, we are "all," welcome to post them. I do not believe anybody attacked the OP. Strong and beautiful self empowered Femme's came in here, and gave their own rendition.

If a Femme came in here and posted the same content. My response and reaction would be the same. I would have come in and posted it. If a Femme says to me. You know Julie, if you were just a little bit more domestic (a lot actually) and cooked and cleaned for your butch... You might be able to hold on to one long enough. True that! But the fact of the matter... I am not domestic and I certainly am not going to change the character of my being to keep a butch. Some might. And some garner pleasure for the acts of domestication. I do not. Regardless if it makes my Butch feel love and adored. I am not doing it. Anymore than I want my Butch to do something for me that does not garner them pleasure.

What every Butch should know!

What should every Butch know?
Simple - Do not tell me how I am supposed to feel.
Just as I would NEVER tell you how you are supposed to feel.

Honoring my sisters is huge for me. For me. I know they have my back. I know I have their backs. I know I would go to the depths of the world for some of these sisters of mine. I know they would do the same for me. I do hope Butches have similar relationships with their Butch Sisters/Brothers.

Julie
This ENTIRE post. In its entirety. Gorgeous! Julie for President!!! (f)

Kobi 02-23-2012 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie (Post 534113)
Kobi,

I think you are reading more into it than I intended.

I do not place Femme's higher on my love list than I place my partner who is Butch. I love my Femme sisters differently. My relationship with my Femme Sisters is different than my relationship with my partner and it is different than my relationships with Butches or Trans Guys for that matter.

Let's use this as an example (Femme's Femme) and why my Femme Sisters and that Sisterhood is more important. I am not saying that I would be okay with a Femme Sister if they did something hurtful and unkind. I would call them out and perhaps I would question my friendship with them.

Two Femme (Femme A and Femme B) friends are at a party. Femme (A) has made it known she has this crush on this Butch. All of her friends know this and the two of them have been communicating and slowly developing. While Femme A and Femme B are not great friends, they are social at times and are friendly. Femme B gets a look at said Butch and slowly makes her move. Femme B has the knowledge that Femme A is developing this relationship. Femme B does not care. Femme B has decided at all costs to move in and make her play.

A Femme's Femme would not do this. A Femme's Femme would respect Femme A and step back.

Another Example.

Femme A knows that Femme B and Butch are having relationship issues. She consoles and acts as a confidant to Femme B. Femme B cries in the ear of Femme A. Femme B is heartbroken when the relationship ends and in the process has shared intimate details with Femme A.

Femme A makes her move. She then slides in and friends the Butch. They start developing a relationship and not only has Femme B lost her partner, she has been manipulated and hurt by her friend Femme A.

A Femme's Femme would never ever ever do this.

My reference to what every butch should know, was a tad sarcastic. Perhaps why it appeared as a double standard and confusing. I would never assume to know what anybody should know. I only have my experiences. The only thing that I would ever possibly say that a Butch should know - Show your Femme respect. But I would say this to a Femme as well. Just be respectful, but hopefully everybody already knows this.

That is not to say, people should not date who they want and find love. But this is a tough one. Where do you draw the line?

Example:
I have shared many intimate details about my relationship with some of my Femme Sisters. My partner knows I share these things. Intimate details which have helped me process aspects of my relationship. DJ and I break up. My dear dear Femme Sister decides it is okay to pursue my ex without talking to me. Talk to me FIRST! But for god sake, give me time to heal.

I have fixed up friends with two of my exes. I thought... WOW, these two would make a great match. Different than the above example. I had a friend tell me years later, she ran into an ex of mine. How would I feel if they pursued something. I thought it great. After an ex and I broke up, and the wounds were still painful for me. A Femme I know called me and asked if I would put in a good word for her. Put in a good word? Are you kidding me? Not a Femme's Femme.

Make more sense?

Julie


Ok. I think I got you now.

You seem to be saying 2 things - there is a friendship code, so to speak, of behavior you expect from people who know you well, In my head, that is a friend thing not a Butch or Femme thing.

Then there is a Femme code of honor, so to speak, as to expected behavior in a relatively closed community in order to promote harmony rather then conflict.

Yes?

Julie 02-23-2012 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 534121)


Ok. I think I got you now.

You seem to be saying 2 things - there is a friendship code, so to speak, of behavior you expect from people who know you well, In my head, that is a friend thing not a Butch or Femme thing.

Then there is a Femme code of honor, so to speak, as to expected behavior in a relatively closed community in order to promote harmony rather then conflict.

Yes?
Exactly. Butch or Femme... Behave appropriately.
Code of Honor... Simply respect for one another. Sex is not as important as friendships, when there is a cost to be paid.

Yes.

NorCalStud 02-23-2012 11:28 AM
what we all could know
 
First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

BullDog 02-23-2012 11:37 AM
An individual copies and pastes something they find on the internet.

Then other individuals- mostly femmes- add their own personal and very detailed responses to a thread entitled "What Every Femme Should Know" and they are the ones being criticized? Wow.

I don't see the conversation being critical of the OP since he didn't write it.

If someone wants to send a special message to an individual femme they like maybe a different title would convey that better. If the message appealed to the one femme then mission accomplished and why so defensive?

I personally am finding a lot of value in this conversation.

LaneyDoll 02-23-2012 11:54 AM
The OP reminded me of a poem someone once shared with me. Soooooo, I think I am going to go share it now...

:sparklyheart:

NorCalStud 02-23-2012 11:55 AM
cmon really
 
You know the segment on snl where they examine an issue and say "cmon really" at some point. I gotta say it. Cmon really.

I agree because Im a feminist. We are educating about the use of the word Every. Wrong choice of word

Im discussing how the education was delivered. It wasnt as loving as it could have been. Cmon really...the whole story has to include the part in the education where the op was made fun of

Dude 02-23-2012 12:03 PM
I dont see the laughing at or any yelling.
what >every< femme should know is a big statement

the poster is responsible for what they put out there
is this really gonna be called bullying stuff in here ?

Tawse 02-23-2012 12:06 PM
To me - I read it like I read Twilight (yes I did read all four books and I still think book four was written by some rabid fans).

It was on one hand fun to read and on the other hand - deeply disturbing.

It's not realistic.

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.

But that being said..

I read all four of the twilight books


but that being said...

I make fun of them all the time.


See I'm conflicted. lol

Julie 02-23-2012 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalStud (Post 534142)
First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community
We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

LaneyDoll 02-23-2012 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawse (Post 534163)
Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.
I have had this happen with two different people.

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep. Kind of sweet.

The other, I was dating. And she told me that she stayed up and watched me sleep. Kind of creepy. THEN, she decided to do something "romantic" and called me when she knew I would not answer so that she could sing "You Are My Sunshine" to my voice mail. When I got the message a few days later (I never check voice mail) it felt bizarre and stalkerish but mostly because she sang in a whispery, breathy, "Happy Birthday Mr. President sans Marilyn Monroe sexiness" kind of voice. Sing it to yourself-see how it sounds; I will wait while you shudder.

I think that with ALL gestures, there is always a way to add in the weird, psychopathic overtones.

:sparklyheart:

Novelafemme 02-23-2012 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherboi (Post 534070)
i often see posts and threads that describe how femmes should act or be perceived. It leads to some really educational conversations about how greatly diverse and empowering the femme community is! i am always disappointed when it gets met with the same sentiment and defense. It is disheartening to see so many people get defensive about people making a stand for their own style of space. Can we please stop playing victim long enough to have a thoughtful conversation where everybody gets heard?

As a male identified person, i learned there are some things i am guilty of and i am glad people came in and spoke there minds about what is good for them and what isn't.
JistMe,

I would encourage you to read the above post and then read it again a couple more times after that. There are a great many things to be learned from some of our wonderful male identified community members. And something you might want to perhaps think about (or not) is checking those defensive behaviors at the door and leaving your mind and heart wide open to the amazing knowledge and life experiences you can absorb from long time B-F planteers. It takes a while (I know from personal experience) but it is so worth it! (f)

Tawse 02-23-2012 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaneyDoll (Post 534169)
One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep.
:sparklyheart:

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep. ;)


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

Novelafemme 02-23-2012 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawse (Post 534174)
I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep. ;)


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

You are sooooo wrong. ;)

LaneyDoll 02-23-2012 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawse (Post 534174)
I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep. ;)


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol
If he had told me he was coming, I would have stayed up!!!

lol

:sparklyheart:

JAGG 02-23-2012 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by June (Post 533869)
Tell us what you think

And also, there are a few of us that would be rich if we had a dollar for every time we pissed someone off.
Better to be pissed off than pissed on I always say. Jist keep on posting friend who cares if people don't agree with what you like or think. No one is attacking you personally so don't take it so personal. If someone did or does in the future Admin will step in and correct the problem. You can post that the sky is blue and someone is going to make a post saying they disagree and yet another will be offended by your blanket statement. So they disagree . Big deal, who cares? If that's what I think and someone disagrees , so they different view point than I do. Doesn't make one wrong or the other one right, just different. Doesn't mean that person hates you or thinks less of you, it simply means they disagree. I love Juile to death and I'm sure she feels the same about me and I have disagreed an debated a 100 times in posts through the years. I know sometimes Lady Snow would love to hang me by my eyelashes,in some posts but go look at other posts and we are thanking each other. Because we don't dislike the person just disagree with a view point. So don't take it so hard. I don't care if everyone on the planet disagreed with a post I made, disagree until your heart is content but I will still have that same view point regardless. I respect their view I understand where they are coming from but I still see it differently. That's the beauty of it. Free speech. That's what makes a thread interesting. If everyone agreed with you this thread would have 4 posts and die off. But look how its rolling. Even the people that agree with you probably agree for totally different reasons than you do. But that's how threads work. You say something, someone else chimes in , and on it goes. Just keep posting friend say whatever you need to say and hit submitt. Don't worry about who likes it and who doesn't .

Kobi 02-23-2012 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie (Post 534164)
We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie


I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

Corkey 02-23-2012 01:43 PM
I think the usage of words is important, if the title had been something along the lines of what every femme should know ( about me ) then perhaps it may have made it more palatable.
Blanket statements tend to get discussed, as they should. Making "I" statements not so much.
I do not believe anyone attacked the op, and speaking for me, this is me being "nice".
I think integrity and honesty are important, and explaining why blanket statements are not such a good thing in any community.
Sentiments are great, but stereotypical misogynistic statements are going to get discussed. Yey for diversity!


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