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Damn, I thought we were going to get back on track with odes and then I saw your reply to Metropolis, but you are correct, it is being continued by butches and femmes. I'm beginning to think like someone else here, that this thread is a sabotage *shocked*. I need to walk away awhile. My fingers are getting raw,, lol. I agree with you completely on IDs hinging on the negative or 'what I'm not', but, and please humor me here, if asked whether I like something or not, my reply may include what I don't like and why. If I simply tell you it is because I am butch, is that enough? I could list 100 positive reasons, but 5 negative ones will explain it best. Hudson, my being a woman or female doesn't automatically place me in a category of those who find attraction by bio males flattering or validating. To presuppose that would initially is insulting .... not by the bio male flattery, but by expecting it. If a bio male were to come up to me and say, 'you know what, sexy? you've got a nice ass'. I'm not going to respond nicely. That's just me. Maybe you would respond nicely and thank him. Maybe it's the historical expectation of 'being the nice female'. Maybe it's the bio male expectation that they can say just about anything to a woman and it's laughed off or she is expected to make lemonade out of lemons. I don't do it, out there or here. If I do it to someone else, then they can chew my head off for it and I will learn and understand better. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. |
I don't ID as butch. I think this is really nice!!! Nice gift for the butches!!
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I couldn't identify with the original author's "ode to butches." While some of the sentiments rang true to me, it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known. Plus, I don't think it's necessary to insult femmes to get your point across about why you love butches so much. Really, is it hard to see into the soul of a femme because we are wearing "tons" of makeup? A sporty femme can't have big muscles? Don't like our pouty lips and other "signs" of femme (whatever that means)?
I also think it's difficult to do an "ode to butches" because the group is just so big and diverse. Now an "ode to" one particular butch, that would be a different story and I would read with great interest. |
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I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch. I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not. I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse. I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation. What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial. Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch. |
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And Martha's attention to detail - right with you there. |
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The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel. |
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I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space." |
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Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation. I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known." What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating! I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it. Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation. Quote:
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Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?
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Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.
I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads. Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't throw that crap at me. It's not sticking. |
Now THAT'S a beautiful "ode"!
Thank you for sharing this Feminine Allure. :rrose: Quote:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something.... |
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This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks. Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior. "I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads." I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there. |
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I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me. Should I tell you how you are feeling? |
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