You illustrate some of what I was trying to get at in my post, though I would take issue that a transsensual femme can't also be attracted to women (as a parallel, consider bi-sexual women). There may be some transsensual femmes who would take me to task on this, and by no means do I claim, or aim, to speak for all. I think the definition of transsensual femme, as it was provided to you, is partly accurate. What I think is inaccurate is where it speaks to what a transsensual femme is NOT, because she could, in fact, also be attracted to cis-gendered males.

The key element is simply that her attraction, her primary attraction possibly, is to transgendered/transsexual individuals.

I have often heard questioned why trans individuals and their partners would want to "stay in this lifestyle" (my personal assertion is that this is my life, not a lifestyle), and usually from a place of exclusion (which is what I was getting at with the "why would you want to date a lesbian" statement). These sort of sentiments can quickly turn ugly in an attempt to remove the offending heteronormative types from queer space.

I'm not suggesting that's your position - because here you are, a transitioning male in a queer community, one in which I believe you have said you feel welcome. (Please correct me if I'm overstepping here). I do want to illustrate, though, how easily we can adopt an exclusionary mindset when considering these issues in a butch/femme/queer/lesbian forum.

There was a time I felt I didn't really belong, and I distanced myself from the community, both online and locally. It was my lover who enticed me out from the corner where I sat nursing my drink - my lover, who identifies as a lesbian, and who's identity does not challenge my own. She no more makes me a lesbian than I make her less of one.

I feel comfortable in the world - I make no distinction between my association in my queer community and my associations in the mainstream. When I feel slighted, or have experienced something I know no "straight" friend can relate to, it is to this community that I turn. I would never want to lose that.

I believe transpeople sometimes suffer a lot of grief by feeling they have to "choose." I'm not certain. Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, but that's a topic I'd really like to see Thinker, Linus, Paphigleo and others weigh in on.

So that's my question: Do you feel you have to choose between the worlds? Do you have to pick a lane, a queer or heterosexual life? Is there really even a need to do so?

Personally speaking, I don't feel I have to choose. And, no, I don't think there is a need to do so.

It may sound pretty basic, but that really is how it has been for me.......for us.

We lead a simple life together, and some of our local interactions are in places and with people who were around when I was not read as male. We don't act any differently now than we did when we were first getting acquainted with these people.

I don't feel that we should steer clear of those people who knew us "back when". I also don't feel that we should *only* socialize where straight people are........or *only* where queer people are........or *only* anywhere else.

And like MB said, I don't relate well to the "lifestyle" thing. This is my life, and I live it. Depending on what we decide to do or where we decide to go, we may end up with folks who are gay or maybe they're straight or any other color under the rainbow.

I'm not sure if I'm answering the questions of if I'm minimizing anything. That's not my intent, of course.

I've just never felt like I needed to choose.

Omigawd, Bent, speaking as a Queer Transensual Femme---YES, YES, yes, a thousand times YES, I felt I had to choose between my own identity and my potential partners' identities, between my community and theirs, between being queer and being straight... and omg the grief. I cried for months, trying to figure out what it meant that I was in love with guys who were straight and I still needed to be Queer, trying to figure out how I could have Butches and Transmen both in my life, trying to figure out how I could ever leave my community behind--and believing I would be forced to.

It took me a long time to understand that there would be guys who did not reject me for myself, who did not need me to "make the queer disappear" in order for them to feel safe, who did not feel like my own identity was nothing compared to theirs.

It took me even longer to understand that I would find guys who would not only allow me to be myself, but who would celebrate me AS myself, AS a Femme, AS a member of a highly beloved Queer community.

e, my experiences in the community were so totally different from yours. I got it from both sides, yanno? It wasn't just the guys insisting that if I wanted to be supportive I had to force myself to be straight... it was so MANY of my friends insisting that I was a traitor for being with a man, and trying to take away not just my Femme card, so to speak, but even my Queer card.

It was a tumultuous time for me and I came through it wiser and oh, so very much sadder.

It never shows, Nick. You keep a pleasant smile on your face every time. At first I thought I was the only one who was bothered by it! But lately even Gryph is beginning to be bothered, and yanno... he's a Two Spirit and isn't going to transition!

Bent, I wanted to say thank you for your earlier post about my questions. It is so very difficult to avoid offending people when the subject is so fraught with difficult emotions to begin with, isn't it? I know that no one ever intends to offend... but sometimes there's just so much baggage from lifetimes of not fitting in, of thinking we're the only one in the world, of feeling ostracized by friends, families, lovers.

Again, not to take away from the main discussion here, but I wanted to speak to this.

I imagine the degree is far less for me, Bit, but there has certainly been the expectation that I choose. I've been called a traitor. I've been caught in the cross-fire between those who are staunchly female identified, and those who need to be recognized as male (because they are).

Also, I am more frequently experiencing "lesbian-hate." You know, snark at the very idea of what Lesbian is. Now, given all of this, I do not feel myself to be oppressed. That's certainly not what I'm saying here.

My battle has always been for and about the ones I love. (And I think I can see that it's that way for you too.)

Adding on to the experience of wondering if one has to give up ones queer or lesbian card if one is going to date and love people who are guys, transitioned physically, or not.

I am just the most lesbianey-lesbian that you can shake a stick at. I am a big ol' lesbian, and have been for 30 years (femme IDed for about 27 yrs).

I did confront what e and bit are referring to when I dated a trans guy for a short while. I was stopped dead in my tracks with shock when I realized that dating a guy would mean, well, I couldn't figger out what it would mean. After a lot of thought, (and this guy hooked me up with a friend who is long-time lesbian partnered with a trans-guy to talk to), I came to the same place that e, bit and Mr. Vent have come to, that my identity was (of course) based on ME, and my history, culture, etc, etc. It was not based on the gender of the person I was dating/loving. This seemed so odd, that I could be a guy-dating lesbian, but, it was just, for real. Gender is complicated, so everything that springs from it is complicated too.

Then I got all happy because I had another whole segment of the population to potentially date. :p

I relate to much of what you said, particularly those things in bold. I respect each individual's desire to follow what they see as their path, even if it means turning away from the community that has supported them. I wonder if the sum of the experience for some, though, hasn't been one of support, when in fact they are just as likely to experience backlash and exclusion (but that's a different conversation).

Anyway. We live a simple life, too. We're just folks. We have to attend the company picnic (and be the only "non-traditional" couple in attendance), take the kid to her myriad social events, and go about our regular routine. I don't feel "other" until someone makes me feel so, which isn't really all that often.

I have a bit of a personal question, if you're game. At some point, it's likely you made the decision to dress in masculine fashion; maybe that first time you wore a suit to a family function, or in a non-queer social setting? How did that compare (coming out as a masculine butch), if there is any comparison, to "coming out" as male to "people who were around when (you were) not read as male?" In other words, were the experiences similar in terms of your own anxiety, or how people responded to you? (Hoping that makes sense.)


Thank you, Bit for speaking from the Partner Perspective. I read the first line of your post and turned to e and said, "of course - It applies to both sides of the relationship!" So glad you addressed this.

I agree that this subject, and all its permutations and off-shoots are fraught with emotion and potentially explosive. But I think as long as we remember to respect each person's experience, and remain open we can navigate it. Many of us (I know you, Thinker, me, and others here) were on b-f.com talking about this stuff before anyone even knew the term "cis-gendered." All we had was bio- this and that. Point being, we all had to learn along the way.

Great question...

I would say I was *much* more anxious coming out as a masculine butch (specifically the haircut, clothing choices, etc...) than coming into my own during my transition.

And thinking about why, I suppose it's because moving forward with my transition was peaceful for me and felt like the right fit.

Does that answer it?

From what I can tell, those who do not know I'm a transman don't think twice about me.

There are many around here who *do* know. Most of them do not treat me any differently than any other guys who are around. There is one in particular who is as kind as anyone could hope for; however, when given the opportunity he refers to my lady and me as "gals". We don't get him or his motivation, so we have chosen not to be around him anymore. He seems a bit off, and it makes both of us a little uncomfortable.

I haven't had any experiences where I was on the receiving end of hostility or ugliness. I do feel safe now (can't say the same was true pre-T).

You don';t even look like a girl and the guy says gals? Geezes that would send me right in his face and right through the ceiling.

Which brings me to another subject: roid rage
Did you experience any?

Well, we recognize that his problem with me is just that.......*his* problem. I don't engage him on it because he isn't anyone we *have* to be around and, like I said, he's a little off. People like that make me nervous. :eek:

No rage here. Actually, I've been pretty impressed with how often I have been able to walk away from things that made my blood boil without saying a word. I believe that if I were to start, I'd end up going too far and making an ass out of myself. I don't want to be that guy.

Good answer, but am I correct that T therapy causes rage behavior? My doc and i are going to talk about all this. I wanted to know if the injections changed your mood during any kind phase or period of time.

It *can* cause it, but it hasn't in me; and I know plenty of other guys who will say the same is true for them.

In most places, you'll hear guys say, "If you had anger issues pre-T, then you'll certainly have them once you start on T." Some will say that T leveled them out and helped alleviate previous anger issues. And some will say that T changed them and contributed to behaviors they did not like (aggression, rage, etc...).

I'm not an expert on it, but it seems to me that it is a case-by-case thing. No one-size-fits-all........for sure.

I have to wonder what the hell I'm going to look like. Geezes. Thanks for answering tonight and for the links you've posted.

Heh... I always look in the mirror and think I look exactly the same. My lady tells me 'no', and it seems that some of the folks I saw in Vegas last month would say 'no' too. There were people there whom I had not seen in two or more years, and they did not know who they were talking to. :confused:

Soooo... I'm guessin' you'll change, but I don't figure *you* will notice anything drastic.

Have a good night, Parker.

Thinker I must say, when I saw you in Vegas..it took me a while to catch on that it was YOU. Last I saw you was in Dallas. I was so oblivious for god knows how long. You're looking great buddy!
Not to mention, I have no idea why in the hell neither of us had spoken that whole weekend. I'm annoyed with myself, lol.

Nooooo, e, no. I have done my damnedest to stay OUT of battles, to stay in the middle where I belong rather than choosing one side over the other; yet I have been forced into a box and stereotyped MUCH to my very vocal protests!

I have ALWAYS stood for ALL Butches and ALL Transmen. I have never, ever wanted to choose. I finally gave in to the inevitable several years ago, admitted defeat, and left the field. I just could not take the battles anymore, not in my own community, not in the place where I wanted most to fit in. Since I was single at the time, the community was all I had... I couldn't deal with dissension and contention at that point, you know? The pain went too deep.

I'm sure you read about Parker's experience with Lesbians? Mine has been the Femme parallel, with people I considered sisters telling me I no longer belonged to their club because I wanted to be with a man, and slamming the door behind me. This happened so often, to so many of us, that it became a cliche.

I have seen a lot of Lesbian hate; I know it's out there---but I have also seen those of us who have tried to talk about this painful experience be accused of Lesbian hate when that isn't accurate.

Again, it's one of those emotionally fraught issues, where we all bring past pain to the table; sometimes that pain is what speaks the loudest.

{{{{{{{{{{{{Parker}}}}}}}}}}} Didn't rattle my cage, darlin, but I do appreciate hearing your experiences.

Thanks, Bent. I couldn't NOT answer, it just burst out of me; then I thought, "sheesh, Cath! He didn't ask you!" but I couldn't NOT post anyhow. *sheepish smile*