1. with regards to pronouns: i ask, prior and i default 'she' for butches because i know more 'she' than 'he/hy' butches and while 'he' seems a the go-to pronoun 'online' --i like continuity (and newsflash: she does not equal less-than).

2. i think the importance in talking about how/why x-person says her partner is 'a man' with a one small detail like *boobs* comes down to the *qualifying* your female partner (as man-but-for) makes your relationship less-than authentic in the eyes of the average and straight reader.

also, it defeats the purpose of being an OUT "lesbian" --and this is what nixon talked about for a good part of the interview (that both partners desired to be *out* and prior, nixon's manager/publicist person had discouraged her from disclosing her relationship.).

3. so, whether or not she 'chose' to be the spokesperson for 'female and gay' --a big article in the ADVOCATE will spotlight what you're doing/what it's all about/what it looks like/sounds like/feels like to the person unfamiliar with female masculinity.


full quote:

"She's basically a short man with boobs. A lot of what I love about her is her butchness. I'm not saying I fell in love with her in a sexually neutral way. I love her sexuality - it's a big part of what I love about her - but I feel like it was her. It wasn't something in me that was waiting to come out. It was like, 'This person is undeniable. How can I let this person walk by?'

finally, i find it curious that nixon reduces her partner to male/female body parts while she resists fully owning her sexuality, instead places it square on the shoulders of her partner: "...i feel like it was her. it wasn't something in me..."

*and i'm not a big sex/the city fan, to be fair. (not sure if that matters)

Right, what she said... thanks Martina.

I'm not sure where things come off as looking for anything but recognition of the issues put forth. Truth, maybe if more peeps could get past trying to read in between the lines conversations like these would get so fucky nuts in the first place.

Sez me who's pretty damn tired of these convos as well, wish there wasn't a need for them, but there is.
Metro

Me: in red.

I don't get tired of respecting other community members be they femme, butch, androgynist, bisexual, lesbian, male, woman, female, no gender, men, intersexed, or whatever. I feel energized by the diversity of this community, not taxed and exhausted. Is there anything we can do to help you feel better? What would make the diversity feel better for you?

Well, Daddy I -do- get and I'll give you that (and I never give anybody anything). But know that the "Sir" I was referring to was really a lowercase "sir". I was talking about if Nick says "on your way back from the kitchen grab me a drink" or "hold this" and I say "yes sir!" and click my heels sarcastically. (That's just an example, I would never be sarcastic with the spouse. Please!) Why is that just shrugged off? Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

Snow is hot. If I wasn't married I would totally try to do it with her. I have no idea what "it" is, and I would like to apologise now for this temporary derail.

Well, when you and me have been dating for years and are raising a child together maybe then you can call me pretty much whatever you please without pissing me off, okay? We simply do not have the kind of relationship where it's okay to for you to call me anything other than my name. Which is Brandy.

It seems to me that the only conversation that you are interested in having is the one where everybody stays completely within the rules of topic that you defined in your initial post without the topic ever expanding or evolving in any way shape or form. Oh, and that it's also very important that everybody agree with you - which doesn't make for very interesting conversation as far as I'm concerned.

Nobody is disagreeing with you on that. At all. So what is the problem, here?

In fact, I tried to have a conversation with you on that -exact- topic (see my post about it not being okay to call every Butch on the planet "he" just because it's convenient) but instead of engaging in conversation you accused me of "baiting" you.

I think what you actually wanted was a thread where you made your initial post, and a bunch of people posted 2-3 word sentences along the lines of "you're so right!" "it's awful!" "grody bad behaviour!" and that was it.


p/s - I get that this thread isn't about Femmes, but i do want to put out there that this across-the-board referring to all Butches as "he" really lends to the invisibility of Femmes. If I am on the bus, at work, at the mall, on the phone with my parents and referring to my spouse as "he"...then nobody is ever going to know who Nick is, and by extension of that who I am.

grabbing's heart's post:

"We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh."

This thread is almost having me convinced to fuck the binary completely and keep my man boobs intact. (almost, I said)..

but how valid is a discussion of ID in this thread when really what I see from Heart's initial post, it's more about a MACRO not MICRO perspective. In other words, it has nothing to do with Cynthia or Christine or you or me or anyone on a personal level, but a constant persistent objectification and reduction of the human female form, perpetuated ad infinitum.

I'm not saying personal reactions are not valid, though.

Take Cynthia out of the equation and look solely at the statement, the sound bite. It speaks volumes and that's what people (mainstream) see. They don't see the woman behind the boobs.

I said this essentially to you privately, but I'm going to state it here because it's important to me (with addition).

As far as ID goes... I'm butch... not a game it's just life, and my sex and gender are not my ID... they are what they are, neither a game nor a choice to be played out for anyone else to win or lose at.

I take it seriously, yep... and I expect respect around them... and I won't accept any less. I don't expect any less from myself in interaction with others either... golden rule thing, do unto others and all, it works for me.

That's why I'm in this conversation when I'd rather be well, doing just about anything else.

More importantly, I also stated I don't think or see a "hatred between" ID's... sure there's some peeps with insecurities and some peeps are maybe just cranky but I personally have friends of all ID's here... because they are good peeps male and female alike. I think that's pretty important to make clear.

I have issues with other things you said, but quite honestly, it's late, it's not worth it to me and life's too damn short as it is.

Metropolis

No Jack, I am not talking about you, Medusa, the Moderators, Techno Geeks, or anyone else helping to make this website what it is.

I have privately and publicly thanked all of you several times. I just did so earlier today:

I don't need any special privileges, parking passes, etc etc. I have friends and allies across the gender spectrum. Certainly some of my best allies and friends in the world are trans men. I don't play the male vs. female game.

I feel VERY disrespected if someone else has a different view about HOW I should be, WHAT I should be.
And I don't need special privileges or parking passes to speak up about it.
And I don't need to play my "female oppression card" (that's like a "race card", right?).

I don't have an oppression card.

[QUOTE=Toughy;104615]

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

[QUOTE]

Yup! Sexuality & kink identifications are not the same! At all!!! Also, the statement in included with boobs... Just doesn't equate to me. the reference places butch in a male default. Which is something that does bug many of us.

I am wondering too if some male-identified butches might take offense as well.. and then there is the short thing. This could set off some butches or short people in general. I can see transmen being offended too due to sensitivity to the narrow definitions of women in general. After all, there are many feminist transmen here that are partnered with women and they have experienced past sexism (along with transphobia) themselves. Many femmes find this offensive- the OP for one.

I have no idea if she was just making a statement in jest, could be. Maybe it is a term of endearment, dunno. I don't hold her to any higher standard. I am offended as a butch, a feminist and as a woman, however. Crazy, ultra offended- no. Just think its important for people to say what they feel about this because we all do have some deep feelings about gender and sexism, no matter how we identify.

I do not feel this so called hatred between male and female identified butches or transmen. I have at times in the past, but honestly see movement in our working through anger and differences. Sure, there has been heated discussions and oh, so, many gender threads about butches. This tells me that we are a complex group with individual characteristics representing a multitude of what a butch is. I have learned alot by reading differing posts about other's butch identity.

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

Who says something, and why it's said does matter because it speaks to context. Seeing what CN said, in print, raised some bile for me. I didn't think that she meant anything negative. In fact, what I thought she was doing, by saying, "basically," was explaining. Who knows? Maybe she struggles with accepting herself and trying to figure out where she fits in, like me. Like a lot of us. Maybe it was an awkward, "Oh shit. Did I just say that?" moment. I have them fucking all the time. Good thing I obsessively edit what I write on line, or you would see my foot in my mouth pretty often. What she said is relevant to me. Not because I give a crap about her, especially. It's just that her comments (obviously) hit a nerve because they reflect the underbelly of emotion that is more difficult to deal with. That SHE said something like "men with boobs" doesn't really bother me. That it was said at all does cause me some discomfort. If it's a springboard for self-examination and discussion, why is it so upsetting when some of us find it relevant to reference? Why does a discussion have to go in a particular way in order for it to be legitimate?

See I have to disagree with you here Bad Boi... Butches ARE NOT just like men, now mind you there are some ass munchers who will play out the guy role, be jerky, an ass clown, have a touch of misogyny but they are NOT men.. Now, I am not a butch so perhaps I speak out of line, I do however have friends from both ends of the spectrum and in between, who would take offense at the fact that they are looked upon as the *men* of our community. They aren't and they should not have that expectation put on them by their allies or their own brethren.


It's clear and simple, for some unknown fucked up reason *men* even in our own fold is used first, as if woman was a lower than descriptor, heaven forbid a butch be in touch with their cunt or breasts because not only is it going to *squick* their future dating scene it's going to get alot of jabs from their own (other butches)

Female Identified butches have been screaming this out over and over since hell I can remember on any of these sites..


I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

Ms Potty gave a good example, if she had said this to her partner

Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

There would of been some kind of rant because Nick was feminized. THAT makes me crazy!!!

I can't stand and I get how frustrating it is to have being *woman* turned into something less than or icky.

It's not... I don't experience this kind of gender wars as much on the outside as I do on here, I meet someone and I get to know them and if they say hey I prefer *hy, he, she, shym zi" then I will use it, other than that they are *Al* I don't assume that their gender id is male regardless of what they wear or what scent they have on. *I* don't want anyone to slap a label on me without asking so therefore I try not to do it to anyone else.

Anyways, my point is Bad Boi, NO I will not face it, butches are not like men.

End of my rant.

First I did not mean to thank you............I clicked the wrong button.

Let me be perfectly clear..............

I am NOT like a man in any way period. full stop. I am a masculine woman. Not a man.

It's stuff like this that really chaps my ass..............makes me wonder if you actually read the thread............

I promised myself I was gonna stay out of this thread *sigh*

I have read every single post here, and given this a great deal of thought and, as usual, am not entirely sure what I think about all of this. It's not just about this thread...that's my normal state of being.

Truly, I do get that the conversation isn't about what CN said or the context or whatever. I think we can all agree that partners say things about each other in affection or jest that could be taken as disrespectful or even misogynistic by those outside of the relationship. Scoote calls me a hot little bitch...among other things...and while I would not tolerate that from anyone else on earth, from her it I like it...and it makes me giggle and get that warm, fuzzy thing going.

I'm rather new to this whole BF dynamic...hence the "newly hatched" in my profile...so I will apologize in advance if I unintentionally step on anyone's toes. My point of view comes from a whole adult lifetime spent in relationships with bio-men (I'm slow...took me for-freakin-ever to figure myself out), my relationship with a female-id'ed butch, and friendships both online and in real time with both male-id'ed and female-id'ed butches. So....perhaps like Cynthia Nixon, I'm a bit new to this community and these ideas....

I get hung up on the pronouns alot. I always try to remember who ID's in what way and use the appropriate she/he/hy....but admit that in my own head I default to she. I think the reason for that is that "masculine" and "butch" energy feel very, very different to me. I haven't yet met or spoken to a male-ID'ed butch that felt like a man to me. I'm willing to be wrong on this...it just hasn't happened yet. I don't look at the pic in this thread and say "man"....I look and say "butch" (and also "cute couple").

One of the (several) things that bothered me on the dash site was the automatic default to the male pronoun. My partner is not "he." She does not want to be a man, or any approximation of a man. She is, in my view, magnificent, gorgeous, female, and butch. She doesn't have "masculine" energy....she has butch energy. It feels different to me...and better.

I've got nothing at all against men, masculine energy, or anyone who chooses to identify male. That's their right and bravo for them. Just as it's my right to be femme in my own way....intelligent, headstrong, stubborn, silly and girly.

Long way around...sorry....I think we get hung up, as a community and as a larger society, because none of the words we have quite fit. If I am trying to describe "butch" to my mother or her friends or my straight co-workers who have never had any exposure to this community....I have a problem. If I say masculine, then they think male. Those two words are tied together in their brains...and in mine. If people don't understand "butch" then I run out of words to describe it to them. I've spent alot of time fumbling for the right words with friends...and many of them are probably still left with the idea that Scoote is some approximation of a man. It's not because they value maleness more highly (I guarantee they don't)...it's a lack of personal exposure on their part, and the words to describe it well on mine.

I'm a man with boobs.

Now, you may be male-ID'd but I'd bet many female-ID'd butches would disagree with you. They are all woman and proud of it (rightful so). Sometimes there is too much emphasis in society on the masculine, particularly with placing it on the top of the societal food chain. If I think of a mainstream butch (for some reason, k.d. lang comes to mind), I can bet she's rather proud of the woman she is and all her parts. So why shouldn't a non-mainstream woman be proud of that?

Society will continue to place a hierarchical order to gender (e.g., male == strong; female == weak) because changes to that come gradually and only when the call out of behaviour is done to ALL of society. We can call it out here, debate it here but if it's only done here, then a large part of society misses it. And it gets lost.

Is it (the phrase in question) misogyny? Yes. Our language (english) is rather misogynistic in nature, even if one attempts to change it. The comments left in regards to the original news/blog piece need to be educated. Not by mashing them over the head but with a gentle nudge.



(Note: this isn't to diminish the "silencing" of the femaleness of a butch woman but a commentary on how society seems to be about, well.. everything): It is interesting how in society (both mainstream and here) we tell people to be their own individual self and yet, when enforce a specific singular label on them as the defining characteristic. And if my defining characteristic is slightly different than yours... well... :overreaction: seems to be the response (whether here or in mainstream society).

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.


The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

Personally all the female-identified, woman-identified, etc jargon does not at all reflect ME. No offense intended to those who find personal meaning in those terms.

I have yet to hear one single butch ever say they are engaged in some sort of war.

I don't identify as a woman- I AM a woman. I live my life as a woman, as a masculine woman, as a Butch. It's not something I "identify with." I live it.

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?

just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

This is why this conversation deserves attention, why it's about concepts beyond what a celeb spews out a 1000 miles away from us. Why it was brought up and matters here.

It's not just a prob of some un-PC celeb, because I come to my community and hear it too, regularly. (don't mean to single you out Bad-boi it's just a good example in the moment)

Why it's all such a big deal? Well it's not because I think men are gross or hate them. It's because it's part of a vicious cycle that keeps the ball of sexism and misogyny rolling. NOT that every person who does it's motive is to implement those things. But it creates a system that says the masculinity, butch-ness that we value is not the product of female beings, and the credit literally in written record goes to man. "She" by default has thus become devalued... and set to a lower rung in that arena.

Female is not a "part" of me, I'm not a "guy and girl rolled into one", I'm not a freakin' candy bar. Female is not just my body, it's my mind and with that my butch-ness/masculinity as well. I don't "aspire" to be seen as a man. I wear all "male" clothing, etc but that's about who I am as a butch, my likes... my dislikes... it's one small piece of me.

These days, in MY life... I don't have time nor desire to spend my days worrying how anybody measures me as a butch, the true measure of me is my strengths, integrity, honesty, capacity for kindness and compassion. I don't worry about passing... I used to, but to me the more "male" you look has no bearing on anything. Truth, as of late I try not to pass, purposely, the core of butch-ness resides inside. Whether I'm wearing my tux, wrenching on my bikes engine or exercising the carpentry skills my Dad handed down to me that's all female 24/7... and if I decide to watch the Golden Girls while wearing eyeliner and drinking Mimosas... I'm still all butch 24/7.

If somebody wants to devalue my butch-ness because I look less like a man than Joe Blow Hard, they can eat me, and yes I said that.

And it's even more personal to me. This butch femme community is very very near and dear to my heart, I have beautiful friends here, and it really is a home away from home and always a port in the storm... something I truly cherish. If I didn't feel this way there'd be plenty of days I'd just walk away from the bullshit. But I believe we have the capacity to, and for the most part do pull together when it counts and lift each other and brush each other off.

And I don't just blow off the here and there bullshit because if we don't care enough to respect the validity and value of all our identities, who the hell will?

And actually... and lastly... about this female ID v.s. male ID butch war that's supposedly happening. I'll be perfectly frank, I've experienced more indifference, heard more side-swipes as to identity... more direct swipes, saw more "who the hell cares" attitudes and more pronoun defaulting from femmes... by far, then I've ever heard from other butches. I suspect this is because butches know well the sting of being on the other side of that stick. And my apologies to the vast majority of femmes, whom I've found very supportive and very respectful... you have my greatest respect in return as well. I truly treasure you.

Ok apparently I had some things to get off my chest... but still the gist to me is that sometimes it's bigger than just a celeb spewing shit and our own opinions of one poster or laziness on pronouns, and we look beyond our own noses and defer to our ears when many community members says, here's a prob, can we discuss it.

Whew, I may not speak again for a week.

Peace,
Metropolis

ETA: Truth if I ever thought this community, even a majority... didn't value and respect female and woman as a strong identity and presence, again I wouldn't be here... my bitch is about lets work on some of the stuff that slides and I think that goes for all identities, not just my own.

I love the subversiveness too. For more reasons that I can count. :seeingstars:

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

Met,

You bring up a PERFECT point that I was thinking about earlier.

Jack and I were having our own version of a "heated discussion" the other night in our home when this thread first started to take off. :P
Now, before anyone says "Oh God! The webmasters are fighting - RUN FOR THE HILLS BEFORE THEY SHUT THE WEBSITE DOWN OR SUE EACH OTHER!!!"
It wasnt like that - We tend to get passionate and loud but it's always because we desperately want to understand each other (and in turn, our community at large)

I had a lightbulb moment the other night. It isnt about who did what or said what, it's that the WORLD constructs this thing where there can be no "Female" without "Male". No (supposed) way to define "woman" without defining "man" first and always first. The causation of "Male can exist without Female but not the other way around."
I GET that!

Now, here is the other thought that Met just made me think of (forgive me for bouncing off of your points here, Met), but I do think that there is a very real congruency with how Butches and Femmes process their experiences in the world.

The congruency can be found in the invisibility that Femmes experience, "Oh, you are a straight woman because feminine women aren't lesbians and certainly wouldn't partner with a Butch or Transperson!!" and the forced invisibility of Butches, "Man with boobs" or "Wanna be a man" or "Chick with glued-on dick".

There is a dichotomy there too. I think my experience as a Femme in this world is layered with my experience as an "acceptable form of woman". I still receive sexism and misogyny from the world at large but I do wonder how the layer looks to a Butch.
Jack said that since she is not an "acceptable form of woman" to most of the world that she might receive more hostile forms of sexism.
That makes sense to me.

Sometimes I think it's what every the butches you hold close in your heart ID as that becomes an *auto ID* in your head...

I noticed that about myself over the years... If the majority of butches/masculine women are some where on the path in transition then my inside default for the unknown is *He* If the majority of butches/masculine women in my life are female id'd then my inside default for the unknown is *She*

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

I think this is absolutely the heart of the matter. Woman and female do not stand alone. It is always in comparison to man and male.

People even "compliment" women for "thinking like a man," etc. Um no she's a woman thinking like a human being because she has a human brain.

If you don't fall along socially accepted lines of what a woman is, then you are either man or man-like (i.e man with boobs), not a different sort of woman/female.

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

The whole "thinking like a man" thing? OMGEEEE!
I think I talked about this in the "Sexism in Technology" thread but every time I sign up on a forum with a non-gender-specific name like " Me " or "Somebody" and start interacting on topics ranging from Internet Trolls to friggin' GARDENING, I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS referred to as "He".

One of the participants on another forum I frequent actually said they felt quite "suckered" because they felt that I "talked like a man" and was "assertive like a man" and "knew about things that only Men would know about" (Survival skills and guns? Really?)

I don't buy the whole venus/mars thing either. I guess I can agree with you that it boils down to socialization.

sorry for quoting myself. I am still trying to tease this apart in my head. If men and women are not different? Then how come when somebody is born into the wrong body it is about so much MORE than fixing the biological differences? That is where I am stuck.

A similar thing happened to me on these forums. I don't know if it's because of the way I phrase things, or because I swear, or what - but someone absolutely referred to me as "he" in that conversation. I let it go, but what I really wanted to do was climb through my monitor and beat her about the head with my underwire.

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue. And that's one of the reasons that masculine women risk erasure.

I actually think that masculine and feminine are distinct energies (modes of expression, performances, what-have-you) that can be embodied by male or female people.

But "man" and "woman" get rigidly constructed and defined along binary gender lines as man=masculine, woman=feminine. Ergo -- we get descriptions of butch women as "men with boobs."

Heart

I think that there are some very fundamental ways in which masculine people differ from feminine people...and will also acknowlege that doesn't always split along biological gender lines.

I'm wondering though about the valuation of maleness as "better than" femaleness in our society now and in the near future. We're at a point in our society where women with higher education and advanced degreees now equal in number (and are soon to pass) men with the same education, and in which men are falling behind in the employment market faster than women. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago that stated 1 in 5 males age 25-54 is now not working, and many have stopped looking. Even in a full economic recovery, some economists are predicting that figure will stay at 1 in 6.

What do we think will happen over the long term in an economy in which, on the whole, women are more educated and more employed than men?

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.