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hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.
psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both. pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females. |
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In the first paragraph the word exit should be exist. |
While I am pleased that we have a conversation about Intersexed individuals, this thread isn't about them.
Nor is it about Female ID'd Butches. It is about Male ID'd and FTM's, the differences that we see about the two id's and how we have some of the same issues. Don't know where we veered off topic. |
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Bully, my experience is very different than what is often (not always) presented here and in the real-time B-F/Tg/I/multi-sexuality based community I live in. This has become one of the reasons I am not posting as much in threads like this anymore. Also, many folks here are trying to figure out their gender variables and struggling deeply. I have been thinking that I'd rather see these members be able to find their path without so much of the divisive conversations we can get into. PM messages work well if we want to really talk on a more personal basis. And sure, as a lesbian, I tire of the anti-lesbian, or as aptly described in the TOS, lesbian-phobic rhetoric that I often see here. Although, with the inclusion of lesbian-phobia in the TOS, I view the admin as top notch in recognizing the problem for what it is- bigotry about a sexual minority. Kudos to the admin! Yes, I have experienced butch-phobia and seen transphobia as well as femme-phobia from separatist lesbians. However, they do not represent the all lesbians and certainly not the majority. In some ways, I feel like the question posed to (only) female-identified butches about our views on butch being used by some of the gender identifications here that claim masculine, male, or man is a form of baiting. We don't need any more division among us. And I do use us as inclusive. As I stated, there are many fully transitioned transmen that have a deep and long history of butch identity and I just don't see how that can be wiped-out simply due to transitioning. Butch is part of the narrative we all have experience with as femme (considering what many femmes get blasted with if they are involved with a TG person). Sometimes, I honestly do not understand why there is so much division among us on websites like this. This is just not my real-time experience. I will welcome the day when butch is not discussed in terms of Trans or visa versa and female is not compared to male in the same ways it has been for centuries. We (all of us) have the opportunity to transcend patriarchal bigotry right in front of us. I hope we seize this opportunity and write a very different history along with gender presentations and interaction. Historically, I see no better time to banish gender myths and sexism. But, we have to take the lead and get un-stuck. Personally, I accept anyone's claim of butch. |
AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.
I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his. I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online. Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me. |
Ok so back on track guys, any thing to add?
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we are at a unique place in history right now, where the gender spectrum becoming visible to the world at large is vastly greater than the language available to describe it. the only thing consistent in this is change. i really truly think that the best way to sift through it all is to rely on an individuals self identity rather than trying to cram people into the same old tired two available boxes. |
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I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.
I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys. Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway. The defenitions were straight from one of my medical books from school. Again my apologies. |
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I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.
After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed. |
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The question grey posed was directed at butches like me! Feel free to PM me with anything. This is just going to spin off into exactly the kind of nonsense that hurts all of us. I don't want to have anything to do with that. I'm tired of the hurt these discussions can cause simply due to jumping to conclusions as opposed to asking for clarification. I'm confused about something. If you do not want post from non-trans persons in this zone, why have questions posed to and about us? Since other female-identified butches are posting here, I thought I was invited to post as a member of this site and community as the identification I hold. I will not continue to read the thread, or post in it. |
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Of course the English Teacher would repost my original post before I could correct spelling errors. :blink: |
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HSIN for president. :hangloose:
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Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways. I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. :| No, Thanks! I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with. I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair. PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life...;) ) Quote:
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So you are in denial of your *male privilege*?? I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first. Thanks in advance |
For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms. |
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Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place. |
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I did not mean to imply this thread had de-volved into a negative space. |
The term "versus" has more than one usage, as its definition should suggest. While it is often used to denote conflict or opposition, that definition does not encompass its entire meaning. It is also a term frequently used to compare one thing to another, not for the sake of opposition, but for the sake of comparison. It is not, by definition, a word that implies conflict.
Sometimes I can't help but wonder if folks just enjoy being polemic for the sake of it. In the case of this thread, in my view it should have been blatantly obvious from the start that it was not meant to mean male id'd butch in conflict with FTM, but the characteristics of male id'd butch compared with FTM. I think that was made pretty obvious in the OP. Bringing the issue of the term's misuse in another thread into this one simply because the same term is used, does not mean the same issue of misuse occurred here. That's taking the term entirely out of its context. According to this thread's context, the term was applied correctly. I think the title of this thread is perfectly fitting for what the OP was trying to find out. |
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I agree with Ender.
In this thread is clear that the OP is trying to seek out people's definitions regarding these two terms and not attempting to pit one identity against another. |
TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"
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You do realize men have privilege right? |
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There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles. |
You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.
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Perhaps it could have been stated with more clarity, but I think this is exactly to what "superficial" speaks. Quite literally, scratch beneath the surface and this artificial, or assumed, privilege is gone. It can't be denied that transmen can walk into situations and assume a sort of cloak of privilege. If they don't reveal their history, and are never "discovered," they can walk through the world with a form of privilege not possessed by women and those of us who don't always "pass" (I really hate that term, for the record). But should their history become known, there is often an undeniable shit-storm to face. I'm not certain we can legitimately speak in terms of trade-offs, however. "Here, have a little male privilege in exchange for your trials." While transmen "enjoy" privilege in ways others don't, I agree it's not something for which our "community" should constantly berate them (assuming individuals with a certain degree of self-awareness and understanding of their privilege); each time it's brought up it feels a little "undermining" to me, too. Male privilege is a fact, one that stands alone outside all the other aspects of being trans that hardly feel like "privilege." When speaking of male privilege we are speaking of one very particular social construct, which becomes decidedly more complicated when applied to transmen/male IDs. Choosing to identify male is hardly a guarantee one will experience male privilege, and it is when this accusation is levied, that I most bristle. ETA: Quote:
Snow, you made a statement and Ender was countering you, as happens in dialogue. Nowhere did I see any statements accusing you of "knowing nothing." These are sensitive topics with strong emotional weight for both "sides" and your comment here feels dismissive of that. I, for one, was looking forward to your response. Not this. |
My point is not how the man feels about his privilege, but his effect on others. If he is not aware of privilege, he can do harm. A man frequently interrupting a woman can result in silencing her and other women. It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not.
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Since we are on the subject of silencing individuals, it should be realised how harmful it can be toward transmen to constantly throw male privilege at them in such a manner that it eventually guilts them or frustrates them into silence. It seems that their male privilege (should all of them possess it or not) is raised as a weapon against them in order to silence them whenever they don't agree with the perspective of another, and far more frequently than the privileges the rest of the LGB community possesses over the trans community (not only within our own community, but in greater society). But an argument over who has more privilege than the other is often useless and can either cause the silencing of one side or the other, or ongoing animosity between both sides. Both happen more frequently than people are willing to admit. I don't think either case is very productive when it comes to gaining rights within society at large, and, in fact, is rather counterproductive. |
Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.
i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women. |
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I also agree about guys who aren't passing as well as they want to, and don't feel comfortable speaking out. That's different. But for those who do blend right in, denying that male privilege comes with the territory is just beyond my comprehension. |
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I also question why this was even brought up to begin with in this thread, and I have a suspicion it was for the precise same reason as I mentioned previously; as a way of shaming, guilting or frustrating transguys. Why is it that in so many trans/male id threads someone or other sees fit to shove this in our faces as though we're expected to turn to self-flagellation, atoning for a great sin? It's tiresome. I think many transguys spend enough time going through bouts of self-hatred, guilt or shame because of who they are as it is without adding more fuel to the fire. Again, this post is not denying male privilege or its effects, it is asking people to understand that the circumstances of many transmen is unique from that of a cisgender heterosexual (biological) male and that that privilege cannot be applied in the same equal fashion to both. |
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I also think that privilege is highly dependent on context and in relation to things like age, race, size, education, and looks. A white male has more privilege than a black male in certain contexts. A short, overweight, unattractive and uneducated white male will have less access to certain privileges than a young, tall, attractive highly educated white woman. In this case privilege is not based on sex but on education and looks. And we do privilege certain types of people based on how they look. So I would rather discuss privileges than privilege and recognize that privilege(s) vary and depend on many issues not just male vs female, masculine vs feminine. I think that making a blanket statement that all males (whether bio male or trans male) by default of being male have automatic privilege is shortsighted and fails to take into account context along with issues of race, age, ability, education level among other things. This issue is very nuanced and we do it a disservice by looking at it from a single or simplified perspective. Thank you Ender for your insightful comments. Melissa |
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