We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.

Thank you for your post. I agree with all my heart. Peace to the young woman that you helped. And thank you for being there.

Me in this color

Nor am I interested in negating anyone's individual experience. See above concerning responsibility.

I hope it is ok for to me post here as a femme. I am partnered with a transmasculine butch. It is painful to hear these conversations when people get so upset that they want to leave or stop talking. I can hear the frustration and understand where both Bull Dog and Dylan are coming from.

The experience of male privilege that I see my partner enjoy is very different from that of a cisgendered male. His perspective as a butch and starting life as a female bodied person informs how he receives the privilege. Cisgendered men, in my experience, do not dissect or consider these everyday interactions as privilege. I also don't experience his male privilege the same way as I did when partnered with a biomale. It's all kind of new and we talk about it a lot. So because of this experience it does upset me to hear transmen taken to task and lumped in with biomales. It's not the same to me.

We had the great good fortune this Fall to attend Butch Voices and Gender Odyssey. I was so pleased at how respectfully these difficult conversations were handled at Butch Voices. Bear Bergmann and Jeanne Cordova did a fantastic job in moderating these topics. At Gender Odyssey it was amazing to see the range of gender expression and how people choose to live that gender expression. As a partner I appreciated hearing from other partners, women and men, whose gender and sexual orientation were different than mine.

It is possible to have these conversations and have everyone feel heard. Maybe not in this medium though.

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........

How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.

Yep agreed. I will try to see if I have any thoughts on the video tomorrow. Will post over there if anyone is interested in further participating in that discussion. I would love to hear other's thoughts. I know it is very powerful and almost hard to put things into words.

I understood "only another butch would understand" to mean a thread for support and bonding among butches regarding the issues and commonalities that only another butch could provide.
I did not understand it to mean "something ALL butches can understand or relate to". There is vast diversity among peeps who are butch. Age, class, education, gender, ethnicity, appearance, geography, life experience, etc. etc. I can't imagine a topic or concern that EVERY butch can understand or relate to. And why is that a bad thing?
I think a centralized thread for bonding and support that includes all types of butches does not dilute the thread's potential as a place to bond.

Someone earlier in the thread posted something about the pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed, and he sought support from other male-identified butches for that experience. Even though I am a butch woman, I enjoy reading and sharing the experiences of other types of butches, especially those seeking support, even if I DON'T understand them from my personal perspective. I can still empathize, and isn't that what butch-or any- bonding is all about?

One of the things that I get support around, and that only another butch would understand, is the experience of being a walking talking poster-child for "lesbianism" or "gay woman" among the general populace, 24/7, 365. And how that effects and impacts one's daily life, living - whether desiring to or not- as an ambassador of "gayness" among the public at large.
Now, I know full well this is something many butches go through. But NOT ALL, since butches are extremely diverse. I don't think that a topic set forth for butch bonding and support needs to be something universal among every butch that exists. We can all appreciate and learn from each other that way, and no one should be afraid to reach out for support and understanding out of fear that every single butch on the planet might not understand. And we should not hesitate to seek support for specifically butch concerns that might also be concerns of allies or those who do not id as butch. For example, hetero women who present visually as "butch", and others might also relate to the "gay billboard" experience I described above. Overlapping experiences should not prevent me seeking specific butch support as I see fit.

So I saw this thread as a positive place. If we need to start butch bonding threads specific to our particular type of butch, maybe that makes sense too, but I see nothing wrong with a centralized butch bonding thread.

And the "one star" rating makes me sad...

All the stuff around male privilege is very interesting but I'm not sure I see where peeps are asking for bonding and support around that? I don't at all discount that topic but I would like to see this thread get back to bonding and support for the things that only another butch can understand. Not criticizing! Just my preference and interpretation as to what this thread is intended to be...

It seems like many posts in this thread are specifically addressing the ways in which butches do NOT feel supported and understood by each other, and as valid as that conversation is it seems anathema to a thread created for butches to support and bond with each other. Good conversation, wrong thread.

My intentions for posting this are positive, and if someone wants to pick out a piece of something I said and point out how I could have stated it more clearly, that is fine. However if someone tries to turn my post into something ugly and negative and hateful- I will not respond.

Thank you for listening and thanks to all the butches who have posted, and allies.

Bulldog and Toughy- you posted as I was composing mine and stated about getting back to the bonding- If I had seen your posts it would have saved me a lot of typing! Thanks for understanding.
:gimmehug:

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

Thanks for this clarification, Toughy. I appreciate this post....

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. :gimmehug: to all the female ID'd butches.

Ditto here.

And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.

Not true.

The ones who have been most receptive and understanding have been bisexual women who wanted to go out with me and straight women I've met. (I won't date, of course, because I don't want to date anyone.) But I was amazed at how "natural" references and understanding came to bisexual and straight women I've met. It's a far cry from the gay men who didn't want me at their social gathering because their families would be there and the lesbian woman who told me I made her uncomfortable.

Yanno, i'm just tired of all of it. I can only do what pleases me. And maybe day I can be loved for what/who i am.

Anyway, just a comment about my experiences since i haven't dropped in the last several pages. Thanks for reading.

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

*grabbing your squishy ass*.... I miss you, my little sissy-boi. ;)

:papac:

Thanks Sis. (hehe). I do respect you a great deal Tough, and you are someone I look up to in the community. I see how unapologetic you are about who you are and your rightful place in this world. It is a good role model for me. I know you have lived though much tougher times when it was more dangerous to be queer, and seeing you stand tall and proud is awesome.

thank you
 

I put the part that resonated the most to me in blue. To me there's a huge difference between doing the hard work and attacking others to make your own voice heard. I find myself on the sidelines more and more because I see some of the same people who claim to be "doing the work" and "having the difficult conversations" being the ones who make the conversations more difficult than they need to be. I can't respect anyone who doesn't care about all of us as individuals. I can't respect someone who thinks it's okay to attack and rip people apart just because they don't agree. I won't respect anyone who acts as if their "message" is more important than civility and community. I'm just getting too old and too tired to want to be around anyone that enjoys the act of arguing more than the resolution of differences and miscommunications.

Jet, only a femme that is in need of making her own self appear more important to herself, would say such things to a butch. Any woman, worth her salt, would never say such cruelties to someone she supposedly loves. For me to say these things to my spouse, would mean that I am less of a human for being with someone I apparently think so little of. I'm sorry for any hurtful words that a femme has said to you. I can imagine how very hurtful this would be for you or any other buth.

I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.

I try to not use pronouns, i use names, reason being is unless i really really know you i have a horrid memory!

and at least with chats and forums...........every time you post your name is RIGHT there for me!!!

am sorry if i slipped up at any time and offended!

Just don't blow up at me say

"hey kass" and correct me nicely :) :)

-sends warm fuzzy hugs for those that want them and stuffs-

I'm with you on the "male pronouns make me cringe" as I want to be recognized as a woman still, even though I am very butch. I have learned so much from these forums (and other BF site forums) about the male id'd butch, and I respect that/them very much, yet I still want to personally be recognized as a strong butch woman, myself. It's been eye opening for me, living in small town Maine for sure. And the oft-times "invalidation within our own community", just pisses me off to no end. Why is it that us identifying ourselves as "butch" or "femme" is so threatening to some in our own community? I just can't understand this, you would think that there would be more support and acceptance within such a diverse community to start with, especially with the historical significance of the butch-femme dynamic.

Enjoying these forums, and looking forward to more topics and ideas. Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday season....to whatever degree you celebrate.

On several sites over the last few days I have been reading threads that go beyond encouraging discussion/debate and instead the OP appears to be leading the dialogue in what feels to me like a propaganda exercise- perhaps my perception is slightly biased because the topics concern judgment & criticism/disapproval/dislike of so many things that are important to me including: Old School; the use of Hy/Hym pronouns and everything to do with male identified Butches; High Femmes; and the D/g and D/s dynamics. Other than the contributors, the other commonality that these threads share is the constant use of the words “Misogyny” and “Feminism”.

Probably I would not be so concerned if these had been the usual lesbian sites, as ridicule and condemnation is something, being a Butch, that I have experienced from “our sisters” in varying degrees since the 1970’s. I have had those that I fought alongside with; turn on me, when political dialogue drew many to conclude that my “presentation” represented everything that they were against. So in reading these threads I was not at first overly concerned, and simply put it down to it being part of the cyclical phase, history repeating itself etc, until it struck me – this time I’m reading/listening to the same “ridicule and condemnation” on sites with Butch-Femme in their title.

I never believed that in a community supposedly forged by those who identified with Butch-Femme and all of its nuances, that I would have to explain that being Butch wasn’t a desperate attempt to become male, or that anything in being who I was or my way of conducting myself had anything to do with emulating male behavior, nor would I imagine that a High Femme would have to feel the need to justify her want to dress/act in a certain way because it ran contrary to some others perception of what claiming womanhood should look like, or a person identifying as a babygirl or a submissive needing to explain that this is a choice only able to be embraced because of their strength and has absolutely nothing to do with any weakness. I have even read posts that have questioned the intelligence of people when their lifestyle/persona/desires do not fit the OP’s “should list”.

I have written elsewhere that it would be naïve to believe that we could “be”- without ever being judged by some, but what is happening when the very essence of who we are is being judged by those, who by their membership of this community, at the very least claim to support if not understand? Has the membership of these sites changed so much that to assume support is no longer valid?

Milly, thank you for posting this. I was surprised when I saw this; I haven't been in this thread for some time. Christmas is nearing—for me— alone. You know, it wasn't the words...it was the betrayal. All I ever wanted was to love and be loved. It just....you know...wasn't meant to be. Thank you again, I wish you a great holiday.

I am out of state at the moment and very shaggy. I miss my barber Vinnie. My customary flat top may be out. I might have to go for the quick buzz as I step out into the unknown, lol.

I'm letting mine grow out shoulder length...if I can take the stages. I don't do short hair

Well Jet, you are such a stylin gent. I think you hair will look good at any length.

I have learned rejection very well. And in doing so, I live for myself. When others belittle me because of my haircut, my weight, my disabilities, or whatever, I think it is on them. Something must have happened to them to have to say that to me to be so mean and nasty. I am very sensitive to others. I sure would love to be loved by each and everyone. I have no clue as to what unconditional love is. One day I will. And like Jet, it is just a matter of living day to day.

I have been dis-invited to parties too. I recently made a huge error in judgement. I sent pictures out to several people. I thought I could trust and love them. Instead, they used the pictures I sent them as a means of criticisms and jokes. So, I learned my lesson. Not everyone is who they say they are online. Sad but true. And the debates over my name/gender change...I had no idea it was really anyone's business but my own. Well, it just shows me about peace, love, and respect. I think everyone needs to have unconditional love. No matter what. That is why I pray for people all the time. It is my hope that we won't have this ugliness much more. I want everyone to just love each other. That's all.

Jet, like you, I let anyone just say whatever. I try to listen and understand. And then they get mad at me for that. I am not too sure of why. I am no where near a threat to anyone. I am a very simple guy. But like you, I have learned the art of walking away. Sometimes it is the best move for me.

Peace.

Well thank you very kindly Bully. It's nice of you to say.

Now Andrew,

Contrary to popular belief, I was once a kind, gentle and loving man. I say man because my insides have always been wired that way. I was the kind of guy who would go to war for a woman as silly and corny as it sounds. But that was my ethic and my heart.

Then something happened that changed my life. Something I didn't deserve just like all the things you don't deserve. Tell 'em to kiss your ass, Andrew. What is a man really? His values? His love for others? His kindness? Courage? Ethics? All wrapped up in a natural masculinity? The waters of a man run deep don't they? What brings me the most sorrow is the bitter asshole I've become because of loss and pain and betrayal. Well, I'm coming back... slowly but surely and it takes everything in my being and my fiber to remember and reclaim most of the person I was, now older and seasoned and hewn like a rock. And maybe someday, I'll love deeply again. I don't know any other way to love actually. When I love, the person I love will have everything I can give. But this deep, rich love starts within yourself, as something solid and strong and sure, so much so that nothing and no one and sway you. I wish you the best Andrew.

Jet,

It is amazing to me how vicious people are today. I am not sure of what happened. My best friend was my late Grandfather. He taught me everything from smoking cigars, how to throw a curve ball, driving his pickup, to growing vegetables, fishing, hunting, to having faith, and drinking beer. He never told me about how horrible some people are. But then again, he was a man who had a 1st grade education, and quit school to work to help support his family during the depression. He worked on a farm. It was a matter of survival.

My Grandfather had a saying that is close to yours. He would say that still waters run deep. How true he was about that.

Peace to you my brother,
Andrew

You're welcome Jet. I really enjoy your pictures. You are very artistic and have a great sense of style.

Andrew, I am sorry to hear about your bad experiences. It does suck. I have had a few barbershops give me the cold shoulder. I am visiting Central PA from Portland, OR. I wasn't sure how people would take me, but so far everyone has been really nice to me. Today went great. I just went to some random barbershop today and got a great barber- Roy- who is definitely old school barber and gave me a great flat top. :)

Bulldog,

I have been going to the same barbar shop for 12 years now. If they closed tomorrow, I wouldn't know where to go. I think alot of guys nowadays go to Hair Cutteries, Happy Cuts, and the like.

Your hair style does not define who you are, or what is inside you. That is your soul. That is why I was quite taken back when I saw what was stated. I have short hair, and it is very fine, and poker straight. I wonder what the said poster would have said to the guy who was getting a perm in the chair next to mine. It makes one wonder. :(

Jet is a good man. I have known him for a number of years. He has been such a wonderful support system of mine. :cowboy:

Peace,
Andrew

You're very kind Andrew. Take care little bro...

Yeah, you'd better watch out when you're talking "PA" Bull.

It's called the "KEYSTONE STATE" for a reason!! WINK, WINK!!! Hell, you could go to the local barber right here in my home town and get the cut you wanted. You would "think" she is a dyke first off, and she would definitely then "crew ya" - while the guys all considered you "just one of the boys"!

You'd just have to watch out for your ears though, (depending on how much the barber lady had to drink that day already). Blood may have been spilled on those floors throughout the years - but ALL IN GOOD SPIRITED FUN! It's a tradition of sorts - going back to the old days of "Sherm the barber"... except he would cut your ears watching women going up and down the street. He had his stash though, the infamous "backroom". (Everyone had a stash in the backroom in those days. Even the guy who ran the teen place with the soda fountain, juke box... heck, even OUR OWN RUN TEEN PLACE had the backroom stash!) lol

Ahhhhhhh, yearning for the days of youth, it appears today!

:heavyweight:

WILD