had to ask someone what OFOS meant.

*nods yes :rrose:

Old Fashioned, old school

thank you :givingarose:

You are welcome! :eyebat:

Hummm. Most romantic thing?

At Christmas he gave me a journal to put my writings in, and gingerbread boy/girl salt/pepper shakers. I was teaching him how to use his crock pot.

It was then I realized he really got me. A Bliss first.

A Gentleman’s Chivalry Acts Explained in Practicality.
 

I have a new favorite Blog. It's all about OFOS, and WHY it STILL matters! Disclaimer, this is written by a cis-guy, but manners transcend gender don't they?

Here is a sample of the amazing writing...


A Gentleman’s Chivalry Acts Explained in Practicality.


I have always been of the mind that in a democracy manners are the only effective weapons against the bowie-knife.
James Russell Lowell
We can find countless articles online praising and criticizing the most evident acts of Chivalry a Gentleman can do towards a lady; holding doors open, opening car doors, and pulling chairs. Those that comment against them, usually do so out of either a lack of manners or simply not understanding why these acts are done. I can’t really blame their ignorance on the topic, because they are not really interested in it. What really surprises me is the lack of understanding by those who profess being Gentlemen. That is why so many of those “Is Chivalry dead” debates end up with the Gentleman thrashed by their counterpart.

If you don’t understand what you are doing and more importantly WHY you are doing it, your actions become simply a pantomime, and imitation, that ends up looking awkward. This is especially true if we don’t have a sense of empathy towards the person in the receiving end of the action. Keep in mind that manners are nothing more than a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use. With that in mind, let’s break down the practicality of some of the more typical actions that can be expected from a Gentleman.

Opening a door for a Lady
Let me start by clarifying, this has nothing to do with a Gentleman thinking women can’t open their own doors. It came from two specific traditions, the overelaborate clothing women used to wear and the role of the Gentleman as a Bodyguard. First off, a woman’s skirt was so wide, they couldn’t even reach the door handle. That is no longer the case, so we don’t need to take this into account any longer. The second is the role of the Bodyguard, of creating a safe environment for women. This is something that still needs to be maintained and even promoted.
A gentleman will open a door first, making sure that the room is safe for her to enter. As she enters, he is able to scan the surroundings to make sure that the area is safe. As he enters after her, the lady is kept from having her back to the door. You might think this seems somewhat paranoid and overly cautious. Just take a few minutes viewing some of the stories of what the ladies have to deal with in a daily basis, and then tell me I am being overly cautious.

Walking a Lady to her door.
Again, as with opening doors, this is all about providing a safe environment for the Lady. Just refer to “Opening a door for a Lady” for a better explanation.

Pulling chairs
Again, a lady can sit down without assistance. This tradition again came from the elaborate dresses of old. But can we really get rid of it? This actually depends on how the Lady is dressed. If she is wearing anything other than a skirt, yes. But if she is wearing a skirt, the lady will probably try to fold it under her legs so it sets properly as she sits down. Now, how is she going to be able to do this AND pull the chair at once? Gentlemen, doesn’t take much to be decent.

Paying
I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check.
What is so complicated?

Helping a lady into and out of a Car
Take a minute and look at your car. Imagine trying to get into it or out of it with a short skirt and heels. Now imagine doing it gracefully. If you drive a low profile sports car or a high truck or SUV, the difficulty level this is even higher. Gentlemen, this is just simple act of consideration towards the Lady.

This is also the reason why you should help a lady when she is walking up and down stairs. Try doing it with 3”+ heels.

Offering a Lady your Jacket
Again, let’s look at women’s fashion when compared to men’s clothing. We typically dress in layers; from the undershirt (optional), the shirt, a vest (optional), and a Jacket. A lady will probably be wearing a lot less. If the weather is somewhat cold, please don’t offer her your jacket. Simply take it off and place it over her shoulders. If you offer, she might probably get self-conscious and refuse, even if she is freezing.

Offering a Lady your seat.
This one, I really can’t believe I have to explain, but here goes. First off, have you taken a look at women’s footwear? It’s a simple act. It’s not like you don’t need the exercise.

I know that most of the comments are based on how the lady is dressed, and you can simply say it’s her problem, that she chose to dress that way. You might think that it was her choice to wear heals, or a strapless dress, or short skirt. Yes, it was her decision. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be considerate.

Guys, none of this is obligatory. Nobody is forcing you. If anything, this has become so rare, it’s no longer even expected from you. Just don’t complain that some of us are not as selfish and self-centered.

http://beingcaballero.blogspot.com/

It's sad that there isn't much activity in this thread at present. Maybe Old School will fade from the horizon like so many other nice things. Firedance thank you for such a wonderful post!(f)

Well said firedance

~~ It takes 2 ~~ is all i have to say ~~

http://ct.shadowtext.net/il/st/se/i4...87c0296ef2.jpg


I love seeing new breath being given to this thread. For me, being OFOS means quite simply honoring the romance and respectful traditions we have learned from our parents or grandparents or through watching older members of our communities. The thoughtful and mindful ways with which we treat our beloved is what being OFOS is about for me. As Miss ~ocean mentioned, "it takes two", meaning the same respect and courtesies are given as well as to be expected.

I loved the post that Miss Firedance made including the blog that speaks in practicality. Thank you so much for gentle reminders and for hopefully igniting further dialogue.:rrose:

I am a door opener, hand kisser, forehead kisser, escort her properly in given circumstance... in general "treat her like a lady" kind of guy. The manners of romance were something that while not always present between my parents or grands, I was acutely aware of when I did get to witness them. I still love seeing the subtle grandeur with which a gentleman (gentleperson) attends his lady and likewise, the graceful nuances that express pleasure and consent on the part of a well mannered mindful lady.

I loved the blog in that while not exactly a "how to" it was more of a "why for" sort of instruction to todays gentlemen. There are many benefits to treating a lady with observant mindfulness, not the least of which is endearing her to yourself and allowing her to feel safe, nurtured and protected. There are also the secret intimacies that are shared more privately between you that these gestures help promote. A playful quote from a beautiful woman regarding gentlemen and their reserved inner thoughts:

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23...2b76de19dd.jpg

A couple of things I was moved to consider from the blog and then I will come back later to add to the discussion as time permits. I have "snipped" the post to just highlight the things I am addressing now.

For this moment, I am considering the "why's" and specifically the "how's" of opening car doors and escorting a lady. I will come back to other points later.

I love both placing a lady into the car and helping her out of it. As the blogger pointed out, especially when she is "dressed up" there are more things to consider for her than those of us in mens wear deal with. If she is in a dress or skirt I like to make sure she has gotten comfortable and none of the flowing fabric has fallen over the door opening and will gently tuck it inside the car if it has. I will usually ask to make sure she hasn't forgotten anything inside that I might need to retrieve as it is easier for me to do that than her if she is in heels. I also make sure her seat belt is accessible and again, not caught in between the door closure and will more often than not, wait until she has fastened it before I close her door. It is usually after I know she is comfortable and secure that I will get into the car.

When assisting her out of the car, I will usually position myself to obstruct the view of anyone else in particular if she is wearing a shorter dress or skirt that may have risen during her ride and that might expose more than appropriate areas of flesh. This is secretly a thrill as only I am allowed access to those views and yes, I definitely enjoy the view. I admittedly love the vision of a woman's foot in a sexy shoe stepping out of a car and welcome any opportunity to view it. So, if being helpful isn't enough reason to do it, then remember the benefits :

http://ak.picdn.net/offset/photos/52...dium/photo.jpg


I will be back later and hopefully new thoughts and discussion will be added. Next I will discuss how I like to escort my lady. If no one adds to the discussion I guess I will simply consider it an opportunity to think out loud and reflect on a few wonderful steps of this dance that is butch/femme (in whatever presentation butch/femme appears in).

:cigar2:

These are great points and I thought I'd add a couple of steps that I use when a femme is going to be in my car.

Prep: Of course the car is clean and if there is anything that would normally be in the front seat I would put it in the back before picking her up. If needed I would also make sure that the interior surfaces and especially the door sill are freshly wiped down. If she's wearing a dress the fabric might get dirty passing over it. A couple of touches I like to add is to stock certain items that seem to be appreciated and used if present such as bottled water, hand wipes, and a packet of tissues in easy reach. All fresh and unopened.

Another small addition for me would be to pull out the seatbelt out the first foot or so as soon as she is settles so she can get it without having to twist around looking or reaching for it. Optionally I would offer to hold her handbag while she is getting in depending on size.

I also liked the part about WHY to do it and how awkward it can be when you see someone doing these things when that understanding isn't there. For me it is part of taking care of her and if she is is dressed up nicely showing appreciation for the fact that she is done up at least in part for me.

I look forward to your next musings. :chaplin:

Exactly!

And as a Femme I say;

Give me a Butch that knows how to kiss the back of my hand when we meet, and I'll give you one entranced Femme!

Pull out my chair, and as I sit, I'll look over my shoulder and smile, just for you.

Open my door, and I'll step out with enough grace to take your breath away.

Place your hand in the small of my back, and I'll shudder with delight. My body will react to the smallest pressure, and we will walk together seamlessly.

Offer me your arm, and I shall take it with pride, and walk just suggestively enough that everyone will look at us, and see how happy I am to be with you.

Give me your respect, and I will give you mine, and everywhere we go, people will stare, and wish they were us.

~Fire.

Opening her door for her, whether she is getting in or getting out is a good way to be very close to her and potentially sneak in a kiss or two so that is another benefit right there. Offering your hand to help her out of the car, when she takes it and seeing the smile on her face. It makes me feel good. I'm sure those of you who do this get what I mean. Then checking the seat to make sure she didn't forget anything.

My last ex didn't really like me doing this for her, which now that I think of it was kind of sad.

Since this is written from the Gentle-person's perspective; allow me to add my perspective, (as a OFOS Femme).

I am not just a Femme, I am a Lady. Other people don't like that word, and choose not to use it as part of how they identify. That's fine. It so happens that I do use it to identify myself.
It is a word I have come to OWN.

I am a Strong, Fierce, Independent, Capable, Woman of Worth.
And as such, I both deserve and expect my consort to not only take on the role of my Lover, but also, my Bodyguard, my Confidant, my Champion.

If you want the former, the route to my heart, you must be ALL of the latter. If you can't/won't/aren't interested in showing me respect and admiration, that's fine. You simply aren't for me.

If you happen to be interested in a woman who knows her worth, then find out what she values about herself, and find a way to show her that you honor that part of her! And that is a Fine, Fine, start my friends!






LOVE THIS, (Sometimes)!!!

As a matter of fact, I dress WAY more provocatively when I am partnered, or in Queer spaces. (And yes, partially because we all know how catty the drag-queens can get) But mostly because it is pure joy to be seen as FEMME!

My form-fitting, barely-there dresses look at best, awkward, and sometimes down-right terrible with coats or sweaters! And I'm just sayin' y'all might start seeing a lot more Femme-skin if we didn't have to choose between freezing our butts off, or looking hot! ;)

I will sound a note of caution... This is an incredibly intimate gesture. While I would love to have a partner show me this curtesy, without having to ask... A random Butch, or even a close friend doing the same thing would probably get a different reaction. Giving a femme your coat is the same thing as declaring publicly, that, "She is with me". This particular act of kindness may be rebuffed simply because the Femme in question doesn't want to send that message.

Personally I recommend asking first if you have the least question of where you stand... Taking off your coat, holding it out, and then asking, "May I?" would be very well received by this Femme.

Joy on your Journey!

~Fire

~ OSOF ~ isn't just about having proper manners ~ Its also how we view ourselves ~knowing how to treat others ~ how we expect to be treated ~ work ethics ~accepting lives changes ~ knowing how to handle the ups and downs ~ doing it w/ class. ~ anyone can have manners ~ do they handle themselves in situations with class ~ when u find that right butch who can smile after you both handled a delicate situation ~ and as he puts his hand at the small of your back as hy guides you ~ leads you with hys strength ~ you respond w/ a smile of appreciation ~ hy knows ~ ahh class ~ more noticeable than just manners ~ osof ~ is from knowing ~

This is a marvelous article. (By the way, I just found this thread, and HAD to comment.)

I remember the first time that I went out with someone, after I had started transition. I was out with my date, and my friend, as we had all arranged to meet in Oklahoma City for the night, and we went walking. They ensured that I was placed in the middle, for my protection. Even though I had been a Marine, they were both combat vets, and knew that I had never seen combat. We had gone walking, and were outside of the gay district, in that town, so they wanted to ensure my safety.

They were trying to protect me, in case of an attack by a group of people. Mind you, knowing me, I'd have done my best to help fight the attackers off, I greatly appreciated their consideration, and would have done my best to follow their orders (not that I liked the orders all that much).

To me, protection and courtesy is very important. I treasure the little things, as I never received them, before I transitioned.

I'm a young butch but I consider myself OFOS. This thread is a blessing.

this is such a great thread!

A wonderful OFOS butch melts my heart and gets all of me, happily and willingly.

:bunchflowers: :wine: :blush: :cheer: :lips:

I love them!

Hello, anyone around?:byebye:

LOVE this topic. Being in the .........*ahem * mid years of my life, I have missed OFOS .

OFOS
 

I am bumping this thread because I am OFOS.

I'm OFOS as well so thanks Chad for bumping the thread:hangloose:

I've been around A LONG time and even I didn't know the history of fashion and its effects on why doors were opened, etc! I learned something new today and that's always a good thing:hangloose:

I'd just like to add my two cents about paying...

Paying
"I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check. What is so complicated"?

I think some femmes may be uncomfortable with this because they think 'something' might be expect if they allow the butch to pay! An OFOS butch would never, in a million years, expect anything in return IMHO!

If you're out with someone who gives you the impression they'd expect that, RUN FOR THE HILLS and F A S T !

Agreed, well said buddy.

OFOS
 

As a native Texan being polite and respectful was a big part of my education and environment.

Holding the elevator door for anyone, helping someone with a stroller on an escalator, opening doors, giving up my seat to someone less fortunate, smiling at a stranger and saying hi.

My parents taught me to be a gentleman to everyone that I encountered.

I am old fashioned and old school in all my relationships. However, I am not "leave it to beaver's" dad I do not come home from work and sit in the recliner expecting to be waited on. I am a worker.

When relationships uphold openess, trust, respect, and politeness as the standard I am very easy to get along with.


:cowboy:

This thread deserves a big BUMP and let's hope for some lively discussion as well! As a self proclaimed OFOS femme (we are a rare breed methinks) I have had some interesting experiences as of late within the last month. I was getting to know someone first online, then in person and I thought for all intents and purposes that we were dating. Unfortunately, interest in each other waned once we spent enough time together.
Save for one breakfast that I paid for, she paid for everything else with the exception of an event that I personally had invited her to that I will be reimbursing her for as she kindly got the tickets for us as I was super busy that day. What I am having an issue with is her bringing up the fact that she "paid for everything". It made me feel like I had missed some secret message that I was supposed to be paying for my 1/2 or offering to go Dutch on things. This butch KNEW I was OFOS and delighted in that fact. I also had at the very beginning ASKED if I should pay for my meal to be crystal clear that she was ok with paying. She wouldn't hear of it, even though I was more than willing. You know, sometimes, even if I am thinking we are dating when it's early days and brand new, sometimes it's nice to offer and not expect the butch to pay for everything right off the bat you know what I mean? I am very sensitive to this and always check in. I have NEVER ever EVER had a butch that I dated briefly (and no there was absolutely no sexual intimacy or expectation of that) come back at me with this statement of "I paid for pretty much everything except the one breakfast". Wow...I am a little dumbfounded and confused here. If a butch shows up on the very first meet and greet date with a bouquet of absolutely gorgeous flowers and proceeds to invite you out to dinner and invite or say let's go to....whatever restaurant/coffee place/etc. I take that to mean you are DATING ME especially if you KNOW I am an OFOS and you might not have dated an OFOS femme much in the past, but you were delighted to have found one TO date! Honestly...help a femme out here...I am just wanting to make sure I didn't miss anything! I don't date a lot and I had high hopes for this butch, but when she said that to me, it felt like she was implying that I should have been more sensitive and offered to pay for more or 1/2 of whatever she invited me to do! It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I just want to know there are OFOS butches out there that get it! I'm so selective in who I date, and I am so glad I nipped this in the bud because it was obviously going to be more thorny down the road! Please do NOT ask me who because a true OFOS lady would NEVER do that! Thank you for reading, for your input and feedback!

Boots it's a undefined line these days ~ but if she did the asking out ,she should have picked up the tab unless she said differently. Obviously you seem very independent and wouldn't mind paying your way.. be glad you found out she sounds like a little girl btwn the sheets to be that petty. Maybe it would be in your class of butch' to look into gay .professional woman. Here in Boston it's a common way to meet people with more desirable character. A true OFOS butch are RARE !

Yikes... will only speak for me.... ofos is rigid in those of us that claim that fame. flowers as you stated in your situation in the beginning seem to be a i wanna sex you! following their responses after that....

otherwise...

for me a OFOS or what ever just to me a friggin BUTCH wines and dines my person of interest.....any lady!

if by some chance i couldnt afford to pay for the date... i have a choice to tell such and explain i feel and believe i should pay to give her a chance for input... or crap if you cant afford it....brother dont....or get a 2nd job..

their are so many things that dont cost a arm and a leg....but due dilligence rises above!

OFOS ..... old school. I cannot speak for the more recent school... maybe it is different!

flowers...dinner ... cards... little things like candy silly gift are the easy and normal parts of ofos.....

yanno some folks dont get the OFOS part and it is always telling if they dont... the same as folks that done get the butch-femme dynamic... same as those that dont get the stone butch-stone femme dynamic....

this is why this site works for so many of us... who gets who we are.


hugs to you boots!

PS.... Boots.. hang in there!.... hugs

EXACTLY! Thank you Ocean for posting this, and YES I am a very strong independent fierce OFOS femme. If she hadn't also been showing all the other signs of chivalry openly (opening all doors, shielding me on the sidewalk, hand at the small of my back to help guide me across a busy street in my 3.5" heels...etc.) I would have thought mayyyybe I should rethink it all. But she did invite and ask every.single.time. I believe you are right about between the sheets...and YES...OFOS butches are more rare than we are I am certain of it! Sigh...a girl can dream and check the professional lesbian meet ups...LOL ;)

I do consider myself to be an old school butch, and I definitely think it's wrong for anyone to try to hold something over your head after the fact. Most old school butches I know - including myself - it is our pleasure to pay for a date and definitely not a burden or something to throw back at someone if things don't go our way later.

I also don't think it is just specifically old school or a dating situation. If I pay for something, or give a gift or help someone out in some way it is genuinely because I want to do it and there are no strings attached. I'm not going to complain about something later after the fact when I did it because I wanted to do it in the first place and it was my decision and pleasure to do it. If someone wants double dutch or some other type of dating arrangement then it's their right to express that too, but throwing something back in your face after the fact is definitely rude. So perhaps this person isn't an old school butch, but I also think it is rude no matter how they i.d.

Edit: I also think there could be situations where a butch was very much old school but perhaps had a limited income or some other situation that made it difficult to always pay and there could still be a strong old school dynamic. It is more about how you treat someone and how you conduct yourself, but paying for a date is usually something an old school butch genuinely does take pleasure in when they can do it.

For fucks sake i cant rep u Bull... i agree whole heartily .....lolcomputers.... WTF

Thank you for posting firegal...love what you shared. Hugs backatcha!!!

Very well put..:hangloose:

I don't know where I came up with double dutch - maybe because there are two people on a date? I'm pretty sure it's just "going dutch" where each person pays their share. Anyway, when I hear Dutch all I can think of is dutch apple pie! :tease: