Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

:lips:,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

I have been amazed by the story of you and your dad, but this is the first time I've seen you write about your mother. I didn't know that she was not strictly heterosexual, or that you might share something so intimately in common with her. What an amazing story you have, and clearly, what an amazing mother... and mother/daughter bond.

:)

Isadora, your whole post was beautiful, but this part, I especially loved and related to. Thank you so much for posting it here. :stillheart:

That's what I'm trying to say, I think. To be honored isn't the same as "validated." I want to validate myself, without relying on the approval and acceptance of others. And, it isn't even that I want to be honored for WHO I am. I want to be honored THAT I am. Does that make any sense? I agree, absolutely, that we should all be accepted for how we identify and who we say we are. But, I'm trying to address something deeper than that.

[QUOTE=Arwen;14200]I have to say that since I am fortunate enough to know that fella you are partnered with...I think he could do it.

No. I know he can do it. He's a passionate thinker. It may take him a bit to get his thoughts in a order that is pleasing to him, but once he does...it will blow you out of the water.

Grin, but you already know that about him.

Word. And one of the advantages of being friends before lovers is that you have known each other outside of that relationship role. But yeah, I totally agree. Obviously. :)

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

Here.
<hands blush a fork>

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW GROSS! Gag!

grin. Not really. I am uncomfortable when it is overt sexual flirting from another femme directed at me. It reminds me of how inadequate I am as a lesbian. (whole 'nother thread...don't go there)

However if you brain flirt with me, you're on...my list already.

This was really really funny to me because right before I read this post by you, I was thinking something very similar. It's been a long time since I've seen a thread go this many pages with nearly no uproar to speak of.

What is WRONG with you people?

Here's a thought for you to try on. See what you think.

Maybe they are harsh because you are doing what they cannot. Maybe we are crueler and meaner and try to rein in harder those that do what we secretly wish we could?

Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?

Shit. Yes. The little hairs on my arms are standing on end.

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child:blink:. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

Anyone want to add comments? I tried to hit the last questions we've had in the thread. If I missed a question, it's not intentional.

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

This is a really good question, Pretty.

I'm struggling in that I can't say yes, I personally feel that my 'femme' is being abused, per say, when we're accused of blatant misogyny (or not supporting), but it does feel spurious to me. If we have our own opinions, and strong ones, as to why it isn't necessary to support, or even to engage in a way that may feel contrary to support, being accused of misogyny is too easy an ad hominem attack. And I do feel it is one.

Explain to me, and respectfully if you can, why you believe my opinions have shut you down (because it is never my intention to shut anyone down), and how they hold up a dynamic of 'male-over.' Because I assure you that I am too thoughtful, too self-and-other-considered to allow this dynamic to be my invisible truth.

What is outwardly and obviously true for me is that I stand for all of us. I fight for ALL of us, not just my own kind.

This all deserves a repeat. :stillheart:

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest, I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

Yo:snowysmiley:
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

Ahhh, OK, that makes total sense. Thank you for explaining with an example. That always helps for me.

It has been difficult for me to speak out on anything really based on my own upbringing....ie. in the South we talk behind people's backs, not to their faces (as a general cultural thing, I know you are also Southern) and the fact that I can be pretty non-confrontational...related to a great number of things, I crave peaceful harmony.

However,
I understand that not saying anything provides tacit approval (implied approval), so I have in the past few years worked (and continue the battle) to speak my mind directly.

Sexism is like racism, every time we encounter this we need to say something.

On the other hand....
It's difficult with the BDSM dynamics in our community that get brought into non-BDSM settings to always know intent. It's a mine field really. It amazes me how often I find myself in just the situation you describe with a friend saying they are not "allowed" to do this or that. I know my eye bows hit the ceiling as I ask "what is this allowed word of which you speak?"

Thanks again, for putting it in terms I can get. :)

J

PS. Unless there was a sorry for interrupting and a PLEASE mentioned I think either scenario is rude.
PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

Hi, blush *smiles*

I think I understand. If not, I expect you to let me know. You're asking the folks in this thread what can be done to change the perception, right? Please allow me to offer some thoughts.

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

When I interact with my sweetheart, she is very clear in her communication to me. Do I feel a privilege sometimes that shadows her needs, desires? Yes, I have been guilty of that. I think it comes from fighting for recognition myself. In the world at large where the difference between me and the other worldly (societies majority as a whole) challenges my very existence. I get caught in the 'it's all about me' syndrome. My views, my opinions, etc.

When this happens, she speaks up, challenges me and I have to stop and think about what she's said. I can't think of an example off hand.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

Jess, I accept your apology. Thank you for offering it. :)

I also appreciate that you chose to keep looking at this and to reconsider how it was intended. It can be really difficult for people to understand feminine women (especially) beyond their roles, but I believe it is so important.

I also believe it is of primary importance for each of us to be able to define ourselves beyond/external to our roles/relationships. And here again, I am speaking about my feminine peeps.

As for starting a thread on this subject, I'm not inclined to do so at this time. My focus right now is on probing how we as feminine people are seen, how we see and understand ourselves, to what degree we are sublimated by the masculine domination in our environments. And how we can more actively move this tendency toward a more egalitarian dynamic.

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

Fair enough. I leave you to it.

Your post really got me thinking.

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.

I'd also like to add that, for me, there is a huge difference between a dynamic and internalized misogony. A dynamic is a choice and consensual, and both participants are "getting something" from it. Internalized misogony is a pattern of behaviors that may not be consensual(obviously this is not a full definition).

And now I'm off to get Goofy a beer before he smacks my ass. :awww:

Sisters,

I have for many years struggled to maintain femme friends. Mainly, because of their preoccupation with butches. For some strange reason, femmes (I've known) can' t seem to have validity or fun with other femmes unless we're with our dates or flirting with guys. I have alot of 'straight' gfs as a result. They don't seem to have the same limitations. However, the component we don't share is sexual preference. It is truly difficult for my 'straight gal pals' to understand that a feminine femme is not straight.
I am who I am for me. I struggled through years of fighting my femininity, due a history of rape. I blamed myself for years. I thought femininess meant fragile and subserveant.
I rejected all the things I loved that were frilly, fluffy, 'girly'. But, as I past that '40' mark I realized I didn't care to live under anyone else's definition. I was reborn to 'all femme', I like long bathes, 'my femme day' (1day a week to pamper myself), hiking in nature, or camping out. I am more that just a pretty face and so areall of us! I glad to see some commaradity here.