are you saying that your girlfriend is the dominate one in the relationship? you can say that you are submissive, or have submissive tendencies, it's ok lol. own them![/QUOTE]

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.[/QUOTE]

Is it possible you both are consciously or unconsciously looking to have the "butch-femme dance", in your relationship, even though you are two butches? It seems like you both struggle with not feeling like "the butch" in the relationship. Can't you both be butch and just have your "own dance"? What about the butch-butch dance?

My point is...get what you expect out of your head and just go with the flow...don't label it.

Good luck.

Is it possible you both are consciously or unconsciously looking to have the "butch-femme dance", in your relationship, even though you are two butches? It seems like you both struggle with not feeling like "the butch" in the relationship. Can't you both be butch and just have your "own dance"? What about the butch-butch dance?

My point is...get what you expect out of your head and just go with the flow...don't label it.

Good luck.[/QUOTE]

That is a good point-I think maybe unconsciously we do both get into these moments of the butch-femme dance. She does not struggle with her identity at all..."I'm Dee" she says. I still really struggle with how others see me, and how they will construct me in their minds. Just the other day I had some customer say I would look better with long hair. That to me is on the list of some of the worst things a person could say to me. I haven't learned how to roll it off my shoulder yet :(

I think my rationality is that if I fit a stereotype first, and be accepted, then I can relax into myself later but that is likely flawed I'm thinkin lol

This is an interesting thread. I am not all that great with words I am better one on one talking.(not txting email or phone) But for me being butch I never tried to analyze myself. Being a mother & grandmother my main character trait is my protective nature. But when you meet me you know I have more masculine traits than femme. Yeah I have been mistaken for a guy plenty of times. It used to bug me but now I just chuckle or in a harmless way embarrass them. But I know they are already embarrassed but at least maybe now they will take the time with other people and pay attention to them. I love who I am and being butch is right up there with my native pride.

birth makes a butch a butch ~ just my personal opinion ~

Just throwing this in there.....
 

For me and only speaking for myself.The circumstance that makes me feel most like a Butch is being in the presents of Pretty Femmes.Being around the ladies really brings it out for me.

Butch
 

I was born butch! Its my energy.

Know what? I used to have this friend that whenever anyone ever asked her whether she was butch or not she would smile and say, "I'm not anything. I'm just me." At the time I guess you can say I didn't get it completely. The truth is I wasn't thinking about it anymore than if someone had asked her, "Why do you like that shirt?" and she replied; "I dunno. I just do."

That all changed when I started contemplating my own labels. Lord there were a lot of them. I always knew that my destiny was not to eventually transition, but I was set free when I had arrived in a place where people actually used male pronouns for me. Once that gate was open I was off through like a wolf that had been caught in a pen it's whole life. I let myself become a little of that Neanderthal asshole that everyone dislikes. *Shrugs.....learning curve.

What I would tell you is this. When I stopped looking for the perfect label I found myself. That perfect label, the perfect description for others, will stop you from being all of who you are. Don't waste time. There will be a moment when, for the very first time, you are able to look in the mirror and genuinely like the whole person looking back at you. I'm telling you the truth. That is the moment when you really start living.

Tell her. If you are challenged to find the right words, print that post and show it to her.


So I'm not the best person to give advice on butch-butch relationships but consider this....

http://images.inmagine.com/img/aspir.../336129rkt.jpg

What I would say is that once you become more secure in yourself some of that shit won't matter anymore. There are so many things in every day life that do not need gender assignment but we force them anyway because we feel like it what we need to have to establish our own identities.

What you are really talking about right there is this right?.....The refusal of a common gesture of love and tenderness, the feeling of belonging to and giving of one heart to another because it violates some ingrained belief of male and femaleness?

*Blinks


Maybe I missed it someplace in your posts. Are the two of you in a BDSM relationship? Because that is where the terms Dominant and submissive come from in the way that you are using them. D/s is not for everyone nor is it a naturally progressive state from one type of relationship to another. Neither role is specific to a gender.

Heya you said:
Well....I don't think she likes anything to do with bdsm, we might run into a compatibility issue. The only way I could really get that hotness off of being walked through the crowd is if the person...liked to dominate? Dee is really gentle...I don't think I am, and would rather be handled roughly myself. Oye...


Thanks for the advice...I do tend to just blend butch/femme sub/dom all together

I've been thinking a bit about this since I saw this topic on the front page the other day. Rare is it that I actually consider what makes me butch because like anything other aspect, it is inextricably woven into my very fiber. Butchness is simply another thread in my tapestry. When a straight female friend was talking about wanting me in her wedding, sans any prompting from me she said, "And of course you can wear a tux." So a part of who I am is my butchness that it seems my being anything but doesn't even occur to anyone else. A couple of friends' kids who are certainly old enough to know I am female refer to me as Uncle Lise on their own accord and it just makes sense to everyone even though I am not male identified. Perhaps I'm fortunate in that I've known I was butch since I was really young and my parents were open minded enough to let me be who I was. My mother knew enough to buy me the jeans with the reinforced knees and the Converse chucks with no pink on them. She did clamp a bit on the sound that I made while playing shooting games with my buddies, but that was only because I was running around the neighborhood shouting "douche douche!" (you must admit, with enough emphasis, it makes a pretty good gun noise) Everything I do is imbued with female masculinity because I am. The way I smoke a cigar, the way I arrange flowers, that I love to cook, the way I fuck. Do those things make me butch? I don't know. I just know they make me, me.

Listen, there are plenty of people here with a lot of experience with BDSM (I am not one of them) that can help you with that and they are typically very open to people that are interested.

I was not quite so fortunate. My mom was forever and up until about 7th grade when I finally put my boots down about it trying to femmify me. In 6th grade she picked a bra for me that was probably not the best choice as it had a padded liner. Now, I mentioned previously that these things were big enough for their own zip code. It wasn't much different back then except......back then it was painful and humiliating. That bra ruined me for about a week. One of those cheerleading bitches yelled out over the lunch room for everyone to look at my boobage because I had clearly stuffed my bra. No real way to prove that at the short length I was willing to go at the time. I stomped out of there humiliated, and angry with hot tears running down my face. I didn't know at the time it would only last until the next unwitting target presented itself.

Here's a bit of information, unsolicited...Never assume Identities, relationships and or Domance, within a community. We have Femmes who are Doms, and boi's/boys who are subs. This whole subject has it's own thread.

Here is one. Click on Forums on the front page and happy exploring, and welcome to the Planet. http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=970

Funny we just got into it yesterday over this and my girlfriend said I make her feel like more of a femme, which is upsetting to her as a butch. I'm thinking it's due to my insecurities, because the second you try to 'pin' submissiveness on me lol, my mind goes "hey now wait a minute". Who knows maybe I just don't know how to be a dom. Or maybe I am submissive, or both...its going to be a freakin enigma to me for awhile it looks like.[/QUOTE]



time helps with learning about ourselves. most need to go through the labels in order to work it all out in our minds and hearts. we all are unique. you are your own butch. there's not another you in this whole wide world. keep what works, ... throw the rest back.

i'm curious as to why it's about YOUR insecurities?

hey puddin'. i meant to bold my text so that it wouldn't all blend. psykbutch is discussing insecurities. i do have them though lol.

Scratch everything I previously said. Clearly what makes me butch is the fact that my bowling ball looks like an 8-ball.

Psky -

Ok ......some of them. One thing is certain, if you step on someone's label around here you can be sure that several someones will let you know about it.

:doh:

Don't sweat the small stuff in any case. Know what the real truth is? Being butch to you is whatever the hell you want it to be. Yesterday some guy called me Sir 5 times in a 4 minute conversation AFTER I stopped him and said Sir my name is Margherita.

What I really wanted to say is "Listen pencil-dick, my name is "Margherita Natalia Luisa panty-wearing Wolferelli. Did you not hear me or are you just really that stupid?" I didn't say anything............I wear boxers. :|

I just got back from sawmill..its a gay community in florida that allows lesbians to come and camp every now and then.

I saw a lot of couples that you would call butch/butch couples via appearance...makes me feel like its not as rare as it seems. However, the couple who comes to mind with this...no way would I walk up to them and be all "hey, your in a butch/butch relationship?" I think they met each othewr and liked each other, and that was it...I get the feeling that they reject labels altogether..sounding more and more like the way to go..but at the same time I have pride in being butch.

I guess how this all relates to what defines a butch for me....part of it for me is my admiration/love for butches. Dammit I had a thought but I got drunk

What about, rather than putting any sort of pressure on yourself to define/determine what sort of butch you are, you simply strive to get the best sense of self you can? Perhaps in doing that the butch tumblers will fall into place for you. As I said above, my butchness isn't generally something I even think about because it's simply one aspect of my existence. While I understand how labels are useful in the context of some conversations because they help delineate constructs, for the most part I'm inclined to say, "Fuck 'em."

I'm curious about something else. You've said that part of what defines butch for you is your "admiration/love for butches". By that do you mean women who present in the physical way that reads butch to you (allowing for the fact that we come in every conceivable shape, size, attire, hair style, plumage, etc), or are you also talking about that energy, in all its permutations, that is endemic to the butch nation? I ask because it's always interesting to me to find out what turns people on. And, probably, I'm nosy.

Finding out what type of butch I am has been problematic for me, so I'm definitely trying to retrain my mind to not label myself...however, when I see someone who identifies as butch....it makes me so happy lol, butches who identify as butch must have some pride there, right?
Lol I really don't know what I meant by my admiration of other butches is part of what makes me butch...more like a brotherhood/sense of belonging feeling? But a butch that really turns me on...will come up and shove me, and if I shove back, which I will lol, my type of hot butch is durable if not stronger than I am. When this butch shaves my head, it digs in rough so I can feel it-roughness is huge for me. Confident butches are super hot. Short hair, baggy clothes...the walk haha. Butches that pack are also a huge turn on. If it didn't freak my gf out, I might pack too. (she also does not pack. I'm lucky we are together in the first place, she likes femmes, but she did like "me".)

And some of the butchness ties into bdsm stuff for me...
So thanks to CheryINYC, I now have this term I can throw around for myself..."submissive butch". I mean, I'm not going to be bossed around or anything, I'm a bit of a switch anyway. I'm five foot nothing, so its hard for me to think someone would take me seriously as a dom, especially since I'm not much of an entertainer.

I love dom butches though. But no degradation/shame, and they can't say "obey me" or "submit"...it would have to be more like.. jeez I donno..."you're going to relax. Stop fighting me. Now." You know, all standing over me and shit daring me to challenge it.
That's one of my wrestling fantasies. Just that firm confidence. So I guess I'm saying the dynamic has to be right. My girlfriend is not into bdsm...it would kill me if we broke up over it, but the incompatibility might be a major problem. Now she's a gentle butch, but she's bigger than me, even though I'm stronger....but, she is a manger :D

I think I'm gonna stop there; hope I actually answered your question somewhere in there lolz

What MAKES me butch???
 

I've seen some posts in this thread that have suggested you and your girlfriend have some subconscious interest in the "butch-femme" dance. I don't really understand that, it seems to imply that some type of power dynamic equates a butch-femme relationship :: shrug :: In any case, I think you can also drop the assumption that one of you must be "submissive." There *is* such a thing as just being a bottom, or a receiver, all times, sometimes, or once in a blue moon. It doesn't have to "mean" anything except that you like sex the way you like it. You don't need to put a label on it.

Lastly, you've mentioned a couple of times that you and your girlfriend may be incompatible when it comes to BDSM - I hope you find a way to work it out, to both your satisfaction.

You might be surprised... I know a number of tops/doms that hover at the 5' mark. Dominance isn't about size, it's about composure and authority.

Personally, I find it thrilling that I can engage with someone who could throw me across the room, but I know they won't.

Hi -
Just putting this out there, and yes I've struggled with this before...

I just had a medical emergency that will take a few months to heal. I won't be able to do my work (construction ) during that time. I am clear that being "butch" is not limited to what's referred to as "able-bodied people," but FOR ME so much of what makes me feel butch overlaps with my body and what my body does.
So now that I am very limited, I feel sad and scared that I'm not as butch as I was before.
I used to play sports, be super active all day long, run and jump and work and dance and have very physical sex. I just found out yesterday how long this recovery might take. I am worried, even though I know it's silly to think like this. *sigh*

hey dyke. i've felt/feel this. and in no way are your feelings silly. i went through a lot before and after heart surgery. i'm still having to learn how to handle the stress of never being the same. certain things. i've really beat myself up. don't do that to yourself.

i feel like i've lost some of my butch swagger. hurts my ego. and not being able to do what i love, what makes me who i am, ... frustrating.

there's always a new that will take the used to be's place.

because i've delayed the healing both physically and mentally. because i thought i didn't deserve. because i had lost. because i have been so angry. i have not been kind to myself.

be kind to yourself. let's both be kind.

thank you for sharing.

mac