Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

LOL no worries. I'm glad you can be fine with a bit of ribbing.

form my thoughts?? that's a compliment. I find they leave my head faster than they set. I need to express as I think. My flatmate hates me :D

Have a restful eve.

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

-- Me too --

I never thought I would get married/be good enough for someone to be 'worthy' or marriage or have children.. so, I never gave thought to my name. When I decided I would take Bard's, my family (particularly my dad) kind of went up in arms about it - they assumed, I guess, I would keep mine. However, we both know had it been to a cis-man, it wouldn't have been
questioned.

My friends/co-workers though automatically assumed that is just what I would do. I defer often to my wife, but as much as I try to 'give the reins' over, sometimes I have to make the decisions!

Pretty much every tradition associated with marriage is heteronormative, if not outright patriarchal. So, do what works for you, what feels yummy.

I like my name fine, but it's my father's name, not my mother's. If I want to get cultural feminist about it all, I should change it to some name reflecting the history of women in my family. Not sure what it would be.

Using the word "wife" a lot can get to me actually, referring to a wife of any gender. It suggests appendage, help-mate and all that stuff. And sometimes the way some people use and overuse it gives me the shivers. I have never used it. I like partner. But I see the joy it brings others, of every ilk, and I am all for their using it. My reaction is mine.

But, strangely, the name change doesn't bother me. And I would consider it in either direction. I like family. It's magic to me how they form and seem inevitable, as if they have always been since the beginning of time.

I really really wanted to get off this box, but could not bypass your post.

This is what I said (and I quote me).

"I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them."

In the scheme of things. There are a LOT of really viable and important happenings in the world, and this was a ME ME ME statement. I think in the scheme of things, it is trivial. That does not mean I am trivializing the choices people make.

Now I will go to my couch!

No worries.

Bard often introduces me as "This is my wife Shannon/Have you met my wife Shannon?" but it is not ownership as much as she is just so happy I said yes (or so I think) ;) And, it helps alleviate issues that could arise when we are at places like the doctor's.. With our age difference, it is also a way to clarify I am her spouse. I think sometimes it is also like a shield - so who you are talking to doesn't get the chance to ask our relation to each other. I have used it with creepy people at work when she has stopped by "Oh, that's my wife."

I understand some people do not go the marriage route for similar reasons as well, and I have absolutely no opinion or judgement on what others deem appropriate for themselves, but for us it is more out of love (we were going to have a ceremony before it was deemed legal anyways). Now I see perks - combined auto insurance, joint access to our bank account, being able to include her income with my measley one for home purchases.. alas, that is a whole different :canoworms:

<complete aside>

Wife just means "woman." that's the orgin/meaning for the word. It's dutch. I got called "wife" in holland even before getting married. Other people put ownership on it.

In Medieval times in the UK, marriage was never ownership unless you had standing and money. This was before the church got involved. It was two people saying "I marry you". That's it. The only time it was about "arrangement" or ownership was for the people who owned substantial property, and needed standing. To Divorce? you were basically fucked.

I think we can reclaim it back to what it was before the church - if we are talking white european marriage. Personally, I'm white euro, so that's really
the only one I can actually talk about. My marriage was way less "normal" than most people's "not married" live together in a house with kids and a car. So I did get a bit arsey about people (not you Martina, I meant some well meaning but idiot friends of mine) telling me I was "buying into the unconsidered lifestyle of sexist marraige" when they moved in with their partner, got a bank loan, got another car, had a kid, and were talking about how they were going to do their garden. Fucking mind blowing. I'm living in a genderqueer political house with 11 people, stuffing holes in the walls with socks, the window sash ripping off when I close the window, mold down the walls, yet ANOTHER FUCKING HOUSE MEETING about fucking BEANS, some yoga retreat traveler from germany I don't know the name of sleeping on the couch, I'm making a living from sex work cause the recession is killing us and I can't find a contract job, and my wife is trying to get to amsterdam to help with her dad dying of cancer. We have no cars, no kids, and no pets. So... REALLY?

This is why I'm not trying to pick on individuals. I'm only trying to talk about a trend.

If anyone wants a great docu on the history of marriage in the UK during medieval times, let me know and I'll send you the link to download. BBC program.
</complete aside>

hmmm I can see why so many ppl have issues with taking someone's last name as yours as a unified couple ~ I took my wife's last name , she was proud to share ~ and yes she bought all kinds of things w. our last name on it ~ the feeling I felt was not being owned but more as an honor ~ may not be right for everyone soooooooo grls do the - < system and stay connected :))) ~

I've been thinking about your questions all day, and i'll try to be clear in my answers.

I'm not certain that it is a good or bad thing to to enjoy the status quo...certainly if there is harm being done by the continuing of "tradition" then it should be looked at and modified where necessary. In *my* opinion no one is being harmed by changing their names unless somehow forced into doing so. I personally love having the same last name as my wife, i love the feeling of "us" that it gives me.

You know, several people have stated that they wouldn't be with someone that would change their name or ask for their partner/spouse to change theirs...i personally wouldn't be with someone that wouldn't

To each his/her own.

As far as the "aping" i referenced, please filter with whatever word you prefer for mimic or what have you. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about negative sounding words.

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

--princessbelle



princessbelle, great post.

freedom is the key. whatever i do in life, all areas, i'd like for it to be natural. the freedom to be me. just let it happen. and keep my last name while doing it lol.

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

Thinking out loud.
 

In North America, the social/cultural norm is for the woman to take the man's name in marriage.

Those mores/norms are embedded to some degree in all of us. I beleive each of us carries the social/cultural norms we were raised with whether or not we like them and whether or not we even know it.

The name taking norm is slowly changing, but the ratio by far is still the woman taking the man's name.

I don't think this is limited to B/F relationships. What I see is the dominant partner's name becomes the family name. When the dominant partner is femme, it can raise eyebrows, but not really.

This leads to the other cultural/societal norm that butch=dominant partner... And that's a whole other thread.

FTR I know many Femme-led relationships, but the question is broader than my personal circle of friends.

That wouldn't be pretty, you and me in a pissing match ;)

I’ve read through most of this thread. A lot to keep up with. There’s a lot going on here for a lot of people. Thought I’d add MY FEELINGS ONLY. It was mentioned by someone in an earlier post, and I’m paraphrasing here, that it was too bad or they wondered what a cis man thought about all this. I have lived as a straight man for more than 2/3rds of my life. A completely stealth life up until joining this sight about 2 years ago. Which is to also say I really had not had any connection with and very little knowledge of the LGBT community. I have learned a lot here, and have been grateful for that. But I did have 2 marriages and 2 divorces. The subject of either woman taking my last name or not was never discussed; it was just assumed. And to be truthful, I never thought about this subject until seeing this thread. Now it concerns me and affects me. Another thing I am grateful to this site for is the woman who holds my heart and consumes my soul. I asked her what her views and feelings about this name change issue were. Because I wanted to know and because for me, I always expected and assumed whoever I married again would take my name without there even being a discussion about it. She is a Beautiful Latina and explained about the women having a hyphenated name of her maiden name-husband’ name. Then she explained about some regions it would be “Beautiful Latina (Husband’s name) de (Father’s last name).
So I posed the question to her, that in the event we ever strolled down the aisle, what would her preference be? She said she would like the example shown. Now, normally, being the shallow bastard that I am, and in a previous life, I would not be open to this at all. You know, at least my name should be the last one. But, as I said, she does hold my heart. If that is what she wants, and it would make her happy, I would have absolutely no problem with it. I believe in the institution of marriage, the commitment of it, and for me her happiness is paramount to fulfilling those commitments. I do have to add, that she has opened my mind and my heart to many things and attitude adjustments. Another reason I love her.
Again, these are my views only. I do believe that everyone has a legitimate view and feeling about this. In the end, it is all about the choices that work for us, individually.

Because the butch is seen as the masculine partner and since the US, although noted as a bilineal society, uses patrilineal naming, it stands to reason that many b/f marriages would uphold this tradition. There is a powerful pull toward reproducing tradition. And both traditionally and symbolically gender plays a key role in marriage. One of the most important symbolic gesture regarding gender is the deference of the female to the male. That is sometimes duplicated in varying degrees in b/f culture. People involved in making these symbolic choices, such as taking the butches surname, often have a variety of explanations for the same choice. This variety of reasons for the same option is normally seen when personal choices have internal and subconscious meanings. Again considering the power of patriarchal tradition this is no surprise.

Interesting to note that despite the past many Americans support patrilineal naming. Also surprising is a study that supposedly shows 50% of Americans saying they would support a law requiring a woman to take a man’s name when marrying. This is particularly disturbing since breaking free of the doctrine of coverture was such an uphill battle and it was only in the 70’s that women began to win the right to use their own name to get credit instead of only their husbands. But again tradition is deeply rooted and difficult to buck. There is a sense of community and belonging associated with participating in traditional rituals. Butch/femme couples are certainly not immune to this desire. But just because people have a desire to be a part of something it doesn't mean their brains fall out. This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance easily explains the lack of interest in examining uncomfortable and opposing beliefs. It’s stressful. "I believe that women and men are equal." "I believe that butches are not men." "I believe that butches and femmes do not engage in heteronormative behavior." Etc... Strong personal beliefs such as this coupled with choices in direct conflict with those beliefs create cognitive dissonance. Who wants to deal with that?
I think this is what makes many people cover their ears and go "LALALALALA."

This is going to be a bit difficult, as I believe in all subjects, we intrinsically speak from our own experiences.

From a historical perspective - The Butch/Femme dynamic has always been masculine driven even though historically it is the Femme's who ahs worked (since butches could not show themselves as femme's could) and ran the household. From what I can see living in North America and being part of the B/F community for 30 years. It is part of the package and part of our history and really part of what many of us crave.

While we are not heterosexual, we have for hundreds of years lived in hetero-normative relationships. We have gone from experiencing our butches cross dressing and living as men, while we as femme's lived the June Cleaver role (I am speaking historically.) to very fluid equal relationships, where both the Butch and the Femme mow the lawn and cook. For many femme's this is still a way of life, as it is for butches (masculine dominated). I do not think today, so many femme's are giving up their names. There are still old school b/f relationships happening where they follow the structure of a dominantly masculine household. I think much of it is generational as well. We have a new generation of b/f relationships that are not doing this, as we have the older generations not doing so. As some have said here, we as queers, get to make the choice, which so many heterosexual women cannot.

EDITED: I would like to add to this. Gay Marriage is NEW here. For many of us, we have waited decades to be able to have the same legal rights as those of our straight counterparts. It is more than just a state by state law, it is now recognized on a federal level. I believe for so many couples, this has created a "this is my legal right to take her/his name, and i am going to do it." She is going to do it, just like her sister did and her mother and her friends and her aunts. She get's to do this legally. In so many ways, it is like a right of passage. I get that completely.

From a personal perspective. I am going to be Dreamer's wife and while I might flinch at the term for myself. I know when Dreamer says it, he is saying it with the utmost love and happiness. For us to be married and for me to be his wife, is a dream come true. I will not take this away, even though the term is not my favorite. Dreamer will not be my wife.... Dreamer will be my spouse.

Julie

I wanted to explain this more fully. Because when I reread it, it sounds like I'm advocating that people find reasons to do something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning. That is not the case at all. I am not personally advising that this is important. What I am saying is that people have a need to do that to ensure that there is consonance between what they believe and their actions. That is what is often behind a group of people making the same personal choice but instead of having the expected or typically understood reason for doing so they each have different reasons for making the same choice.

It is also why people often hate being asked to explain and examine their beliefs or the process by which they have reached their opinions. It is why we find people, who are on a discussion board where the purpose, one could not be faulted for believing, is to actually have discussions, angered by being asked to discuss. Questions that ask people to challenge their beliefs are difficult. It is the reason we hear so many people say it’s just my opinion and I’m entitled to it. I don’t have to explain myself. Which effectively cuts off any chance for discussion. This desire to shut down the other person, or shut up oneself, increases dramatically when someone is being asked to look at how they are holding conflicting beliefs, ideas, opinions, etc. It is uncomfortable to do this so people look for a way to achieve harmony between opinions or actions. It requires a good deal of mental and emotional gymnastics at times to achieve consonance, but discomfort increases this type of athletic prowess exponentially.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular or even about this thread specifically, although focusing on honeybarbara's questions brought this stuff up for me. I know it is not an answer to her questions, it's more why there is not likely to be satisfactory answers to her questions. To lots of questions.

It doesn't make me uncomfortable to look at my own cognitive dissonance.

What has made me uncomfortable is the underlying feeling of shaming I have felt for those of us, mostly femmes; that chose, will chose or want to chose: our partners name.

I know someone will jump in to say : "there is no shaming going on here".

I know what I feel.

Feminism used to be an almost abstract concept for me. I was on the outside looking in when I was my most vocal and sure in my beliefs.

That means I was not in a relationship. Of any type-men or women but men were pretty much in my rear-view mirror for good.

I was never going to be an instrument of the patriarchy ever again. Hell no! Not me.

Then, after many changes: I became on the inside.

Living inside a relationship as I am today.

My current relationship brings up many issues for me.

We are both in our 6th decade of life.

For those of you that are young, you can read about the second wave of feminism but for those of us that are older and that were politically active in the late 60's and 70's-we lived it. Marching in the streets, protests, demanding the rights of women to abortion (how painful to watch those gains slip away) and marching for women's liberation.

Sometimes I wonder what we had gained and what we have truly lost. (Did we ever have "it" in the first place?)

My love and I try to do the very best that we can to honor our feminism, knowing full-well that we are fully socialized into a patriarchal society.

I think a difference is that we are aware and not pretending to ourselves that it has had no effect on us.

I no longer have the time to fight the same battles that I used to fight. Now, I just want to live my life, have a measure of happiness and grow old with her.

I make no apologies for wanting to change my last name to hers.

Part of feminism to me is acceptance of each woman and her choices.

No shaming or judging.

It does make most people uncomfortable to hold two or more conflicting beliefs or opinions. I'm glad you don't have a problem doing it. Most get a feeling of unease and have to shift things around until they feel comfortable. May I ask what particular cognitive dissonance you were looking at in this case that was NOT making you uncomfortable? Or were simply speaking generically, like cognitive dissonance doesn't affect you? Or did you mean there is no cognitive dissonance for you concerning this issue, but if there were any it would not make you uncomfortable?

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

:rrose:

And I hope you know I feel the same about you. I would hate to have said something upsetting. I always try to be respectful in my posts. And I certainly don't disagree with anything you are saying.

No worries that you are done with this. I don’t have to understand everything. And I can take no for an answer. Actually I hear it a lot because I ask a lot of questions. I know I can be exhausting. I'm learning not to :deadhorse:.

I have nothing but respect for you. :bouquet:

MT,

Not upsetting at all. You are always respectful.

One of my issues is always explaining.

I always had to justify myself as a kid and frequently find myself doing that as an adult <<<<<<just like here:)

I try not to do that when I feel done with something.

I can :deadhorse: with the best of them.

:bouquet:

I'm sorry you feel personally shamed. I know that when that comes up for me, ti's cause there's a trigger of past crap there. I don't believe I have shamed anyone in my questions. I don't think there is any shame in someone IDing as old school, liking heteronormative rituals and taking them as their own, with this one stipulation: as long as they are conscious that this is what they are doing

Wanna be heteronormative? bo-yaa. knock yourself out. but own it. I'd like to add I did give props to the one poster who came in and did this. when I read she was fully aware of it and she liked it, I thought "ok, fine with me. glad to know you are happy with doing that and aware of it." thumbs up.

I have a few heteronormative things that I personally find a turn on. and I'm happy to own them to whomever *asks*

What makes me irked is people not aknowledging what they are investing in, denying it and then saying it's a traditional butch-femme ritual "dance" and so there and we all get to act like best suits us, we should be proud.

that, to me, is like sand paper. And I know where that issue of *mine* comes from. It's the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I'm *supposed* to be doing and *that* is called the true "butch-femme" dance. And I'm bastardising it.

so when I ask a social science type question (why do we do X, where does this come from, are we cognisant of this) about us, and get "you are judging me" from people, I would really like it if they would actually show me where I personally have judged someone, so I can either a) clear that error of communication up or b) understand how that could be shaming.

so, if you feel like naming the shaming comments, it's much more helpful to me as a person than someone coming in and saying "I'm being shamed" and .... that's kinda it. I can't do anything about my behaviour if it's not pointed at. It's like someone saying "I was hurt when you were shitty to me today!" and that's it. Um. ok.

So, it would be really helpful if you could show me anything I've said you found shaming.

I grew up around the double last name thing and like it.

I am not saying there is any shame in it but I don’t id as old school. I don’t like heteronormative rituals. I don’t take them as my own. So I will not be conscious that this is what I am doing, because it’s not. As a matter of fact I have put in enough time examining and unpacking to know this is absolutely not what I am doing. Yet I could cheerfully give Truly Scrumptious my name. And I don't have to knock myself out or own it.

I am not making the assumption that heterosexual norms are what I am supposed to be doing, nor am I bastardizing the true butch-femme dance. And I still will give my name to my wife if that is what she wants. I don’t think I have to admit to liking heteronormative rituals or iding as old school in order to give my wife my name. I have to look at it, examine what it means, understand what is behind the rituals, but I don’t have to be invested in the actual heteronormative ritual. I strongly object to that assumption. The patriarchy doesn’t own masculinity, marriage or naming. These things can be appropriated and made in another image. I just have to be cognizant of what I am doing and why. If I believed that I had to identify with heteronormative rituals to have what I want and to be who I am, then I might as well just hand over masculinity to the patriarchy and be done with it. It doesn’t make sense. If I can do woman the way I want regardless of heteronormative rituals and patriarchal rules of gender, then I can marry who I chose and give them my name if I want and still not be aping man/woman relationships.

Maybe I'm missing something but I seriously don't understand why you would say this.

I'm wondering about how not sharing a last name will
affect hospital visitation stuff. If I do have a spouse in
the hospital , I pity the fool who wants me to prove that we
are really married.

she have your name listed as her spouse during hospital registration?

same.last.name.could mean you are her second cousin. same.last.name.doesnt prove much :(

Medical power of attorney.

To me, thinking that a femme taking a butch's last name is heteronormative is in itself heteronormative thinking. I am not a man or man-like. To me, masculinity does not equal male, and a butch is not a stand in or substitute or close approximation for cis male. Butch is butch and there are many different flavors of butch. So some of the discussion here does have me confused. If a woman took my last name in marriage, she would be taking a butch woman's last name who got it from her father.

sorry, changed my mind

I'd like to take up the issue that butch-femme history was "masculine driven" or however it was put. That is simply not the case. For material reasons. Queer folk have not enjoyed institutional support for our unions. Few employers, churches and family members took an interest in how butch-femme couples ran their lives except to condemn them outright. The state granted no legal privileges to either partner as there was no legal marriage. (Most butch-femme couples were marginalized socially and economically.) And as was noted, butches were not economically more powerful than femmes; often they were less so.

So there was no great power disparity between butches and femmes. While many femmes deferred to butches in public and private, this was not a patriarchal institution. It just didn't work that way. I am old, and I knew some butch-femme couples from the fifties and even the forties. And they were not couples whose relationships were marked by real power disparities.

Butch-femme culture is, and has been, rife with sexism. And that matters, but our relationships have never been like heterosexual relationships because real power never rested with butches. And material power differences are what maintain oppression, not ideology alone.

I would buy that bulldog, if the thought was born out of thin air.

or

If just as many butches took femmes names and it was equal. but taking a tradition from a heterosexual past, and applying it Feminine to Masculine....

I understand what you are trying to say and that's not why I am trying to point out.

people do things, even me, that are because of what they have learned as feminine to masculine traditions. they may have deconstructed them, they may be Uber Queer and both are women, but they are still acting traditions they recognise as feminine to masculine.

they did not make them up themselves. they are following what they are taught, feminine to masculine.

I am *NOT* calling people sheep, telling them they are bad, or evil for doing so.

actually, know what?

fine. no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.

we are innocent and entirely unto ourselves.

amen.

later folks