I always care what you think Snowy. <3 you are one of my favorite people and you've impacted my life greatly just by being exactly who you are and refusing to compromise.

I started the thread but am not a mod and I have no strong intention of controlling the direction of this thread. I just hope butch voices aren't being silenced here in a rather delicate/vulnerable place where they have been invited to engage. If I weren't piled under a deluge of homework, I would probably try to figure out a good spin-off thread for the contentious issues.

Thinking out loud
 

I think inviting other folk who aren't butch is why we are all here, plus when it comes to femininity, that opens it up to well myself, I am feminine. I guess if anything the thread should of been for just butches, so that they would of been heard, kinda like we do in Femme threads.

Make sense?


I enjoy your thought provoking threads, I really do.. :hk2:

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

Just catching up..
 

Interesting topic...



I am butch who would some would call 'butch-ish' Nope, what another person thinks of my gender is no longer my concern.

Yep, I've been told that I am not a butch because of my hair length, I like to fuck and get fucked, I cry at ATT&T commercials, etc.

Thank you.

I used to but what other humans think of me is of no concern to me. In my younger days, I remember saying things that make me cringe when I think about them. Then I grew up and realized that however someone expresses their gender is not for me to judge or be judged.

I still want Jon Bon Jovi's hair!


I used to listen to those folks when I was in my late 20's-early 30's. I still have people question my butchness. Now in my late 40's I don't give a fuck, I am butch, how you (the general) perceive my gender doesn't really matter to me anymore. Butch is my gender and I may have traits that you (general) deem 'feminine' but it really isn't up to you to define how I 'do' butch. :)

My language is not outdated. I am a gender therapist. It is what I do for a living. I work with trans* people 5 days a week.

Next.

I did create a thread in the red zone specifically for lesbian love/hate within our community for those who are interested in continuing that conversation

Bolsheviks vs Mensheviks, Lenin vs Trotsky, Marat vs Sade vs Robespierre, Jefferson vs Hamilton, MLK vs Malcolm X...etc. Seems all "movements have these schisms .
So my question is, Butler vs ?. Is there anyone within this community who cogently presents an antithetical view but is still accepted within the community? It's a small question but I am curious.

I agree terminology evolves but sometimes it doesn't matter. People get to choose for themselves.

I believe there are. However, with any group of people debating one often sees support of each side being debated. Therefore, I have yet to see an opinion so different that a person had no support and alone and ultimately not accepted.

Then again...I could be misreading and not answering your question correctly

Kobi?

She is presenting like an old-fashioned identity politics feminist right now - although she has a post in which she talked about running into some hard core anti-trans essentialist ones and did not like what she found.

Trying to think who else. The Taliban? I am being facetious, but why would anyone want to reclaim identity politics? They don't make sense. I don't know. I am sure there are people. But the social construction of race and gender are pretty widely accepted, sort of a bedrock social theory.

Maybe biologists and psychologists who study the biological basis of sex and gender? For race, no. There is no other accepted theory.

Thanks stargazingboi. My q is a straightforward one. I was just wondering if someone had a name of one or two writers/thinkers/academics etc on this topic who present a view different than Butlers on the subject of inclusion/exclusion but were still respected in this community. I'm not presenting a pov just asking for info.

ok, thanks Martina.

Ahhh gotcha...when it comes to academics I cant think of anyone off the top of my head that are not respected overall. Perhaps, by individuals that I know but not as a community.

I have to be honest though....I still haven't read anything that was so out there in their view points that the community at large would turned their back.

For me it's the same thing I have heard over and over for years with different words

This is a great thread because it illustrates the complexity of humanity with the sub category of this community. :)

There are recent posts where I agree with some and others not at all. However that would be the same for other members as well. It would be difficult for me to provide my opinion without stirring up contention. One main reason to this is how text can be interpreted. The drawback of cyber world.

A concern I have with no boundaries’ policy is leaves too many things up in the air and the lose of meaning. Live and let live yes, as long as no harm is done to another (as in regard to situation with absolutely no choice EX. family one is born into, medical condition, ethnicity etc). This I totally agree. However even with that, I think people forget or do not understand or realize there is price to pay (not necessarily in monetary terms) for every choice you make. Meaning people will not always like or agree with your decisions or chooses and they don’t have to. There is no free ride. ;)

I pulled some books off my shelf and did a quick google search. I couldn't find anyone in direct opposition. What I came across was others' works that is similar in thought.

If you are interested in gender, you may appreciate Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity.

There isn't a lot of meaning to many identity categories. I read a great book a long time ago about African American identity. The only thing all -- or even most -- African Americans have in common is having experienced the particular form of racism that is directed against African Americans in the United States. Every other thing that one might associate with the identity was not shared by a relatively significant portion of the group.

But being subject to racism does create a shared experience and a bond. On that happy day when there is very little racism against African Americans in this country, what will there be to create the identity African American? Nothing. Individual groups of African Americans will share interests, history, etc. But for the entire group, the only thing they'll have in common is that they chose to check the African American box on a form.

thank you Dapper Butch.It's much appreciated. I intend to do some reading. TY again.

I want to post cause I found Nat's thread asking about butch femininity pretty awesome. Not the usual stuff. And clearly I am posting because I really want to post in this thread, but I don't know what to say. I see the direction has changed a bit. And I don't know exactly what we are talking about. I'm trying to follow but i'm not sure I get it. I do understand that lots of people are digging it though and feel it's a really great convo. I'm glad. I really like people to be happy and to enjoy themselves. But I'm not sure exactly what it's all about.

However, I got the part about policing boundaries and the importance of softness about the edges. There is always slippage around the borders of things. It stresses some people, makes them anxious. I know we are not speaking geographically here but it is still a good example. The amount of give at borders depends on what you are trying to keep in but often more importantly what you are attempting to keep out. Crossing over from Canada to the US is easier than crossing over from Mexico. But wherever you are placing boundaries they need give. Margins need flexibility.

Personally I think anybody is a lesbian who says they are a lesbian. I think anybody is a butch who says they are a butch. I think anybody is a femme who says they are a femme. If you say you are a woman then you are a woman to me. If you say you are a man, you are a man to me. I respect other people's choices.

I know there are certain requirements that need to be met or words become meaningless and exchanges of ideas impossible because the ground keeps shifting. I suppose you can't just say you are Polish when you don't meet the criteria. But I don't want to be the one to have to tell someone they aren't Polish if they feel they are. I hate killing people's dreams.

I know that not all Muslims are terrorists. I know that some terrorists are radical Islamists. I would never negate someone's personal experience with terrorism perpetrated by radicals who happen to be Muslim by saying they should not talk about their horrible experience with terrorism just because there is way too much Muslim bashing going on. However, if there were a place where Muslims and those who have been victims of terrorism by radical Islamic terrorists shared space it might not be the sanest, safest, or fairest place to hash out prejudices against Muslims. I guess this is a terrible example but I can't think of a different one. I'm just trying to say that here on the Planet I don't think it is possible for lesbians to get a fair shake. Too much water under the bridge. Too much anger at them uppity women.

Miss Tick,
I know that yours was a serious considered post but I couldn't help laughing at someone dreaming to be Polish. I don't know why that strikes me as so funny but it does. Maybe cause I'm Polish.

I figure if someone says they are a lesbian it must resonate with them. Otherwise why would they say that? I don't think being a lesbian is really in that high of demand or considered a big status symbol. It's not like saying I want to be a multi millionaire. I see it as an indication of who they see themselves to be and who they view as part of their community. If it turns out they have some nefarious reason it will all come out in the wash.

I try to be serious with as much humor as possible. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. And I'm always glad to be responsible for laughter. :)

Even being Polish can illustrate the point. Think of the just these few ways of being Polish:

1. You grew up in America. Your grandparents on both sides came from Poland. You went to an Orthodox Church. You like pirogi. You do not speak Polish.
   
2. You were born in Ethiopia and adopted by Polish parents. You speak only Polish and are culturally Polish.
   
3. You were born in Poland of Polish parents, but adopted by a Czech couple. You are not culturally Polish. You do not speak the language.
   
4. You are an Israeli Jew whose grandparents came from Poland. Your Rabbi is from a lineage that originated in Poland. You speak no Yiddish and Hebrew. but no Polish
   
5. Your father is a guest worker in Poland, originally from Morocco. You are a teenager and identify as Moroccan because you do not feel accepted in the country of your birth. You speak Polish, Arabic and French.

Is there any one genetic, cultural or linguistic tie that unites all of these people? No. Yet, all of them have good reasons for claiming, or being called, Polish.

The example of some random person claiming to be Polish is a red herring. Those kind of outlier examples do occur -- the guy Bulldog knew in Santa Cruz -- but they are so rare as to be meaningless. We do not have to fear that a lot of people are going to claim lesbian if we do not police it sufficiently.

But the fact is, if we try to claim lesbian means a set of specific things, we will exclude. We have to accept people's self-identification.

I will always accept people's self-identification. I can't help but define things for myself. I might figure something means a set of specific things but for me none of those things are set in stone, nor are they the only specific things that might define that particular something. You have a different definition that's cool with me. Why would I want to keep someone from what they feel is their identity? I'm so not interested in policing people's identities. I don't even want to police the definitions of words. I don't care how people define things. To me it doesn't change anything. It might require a bit more communication to understand each other, but nothing wrong with communication.

My wife and I can't even agree if something is blue or purple. It's blue to her, it's purple to me. What possible difference can it make?

Just for fun:
Yes, some of those people might have a reason for claiming to be Polish but if they tried to get Polish citizenship they would have to meet a stricter set of criteria set out by the Polish government otherwise Poland might be overrun by people wanting to be Polish and "Polish identity" might become an empty unuseful identifier.

That said, I do see where you're going with this.

All I can say is thank goodness there isn't a Lesbian government or a Butch government or a...just fill in any identifier you would like.

And even without a government of the Republic of Lesbian and people taking the identity of lesbian willy nilly, it still isn't an empty unuseful identifier.

Maybe people can choose for themselves, maybe identities can be stretched without losing their shape and the meaning of the identity completely?

I am lesbian hear me roar! I shall not be defined by others nor be boxed in by their definitions! I am me and will be happy within my own skin. I will not feel I have to change me or any part of me to please another! I will respect other lesbians and how they ID. Likewise I will expect the same!

Yeah but if anyone gets to ID as a lesbian, then cats, ham sandwiches and cis men will ID as one.

Sounds an awful lot like

Yeah but if we let gay people get married then people will want to marry their dog and their toaster ovens.


I'm personally not the femme police. I stopped giving a shit about who called themselves a femme years ago. Sincerely. I honestly don't. It does nothing to my person if 1:100000 people claiming femme is a cis man. Cause they won't. They don't have any interest in doing so. Guarding the boundaries of my gender is pointless cause not everyone wants to fucking join.

I really, really don't care. And I know what it's like to be told I'm not a lesbian. It STILL happens. Because some peoples definition is women with physical pussies that like to interact in ways that worship other women's and only other women's physical pussies and nothing but that pussy.

And you have to be gold star. Or you are forever and ever a bisexual.

Guess what though. They get to have that definition of lesbian. And I get to think they are full of shit, roll my eyes and want nothing to do with them and go play with the lesbians who like me to relate to their clitorus as a little female cock and put my fingers in their masculine vag hole. Yum. Or treat that whole area like a big fat dyke dick. With lips.

Or ANY way else they may see their genitalia, I have this magic wand in my head that I can wave and I actually see theirs that way too. It's part of my charm. That and my tits. And sometimes my brain. And my incredible way with words.

I pulled a back muscle and typing this on muscle relaxants is quite interesting. As is reading. It's also really painful so I'm going to stop now. But happy lunar new year! And jolly hard cocking vagina fun for everyone!

what was the topic again?
 

With all the meandering about I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore. But the original post resonated with me, so here I go.

I like wearing eyeliner (that smokey eye thing) and shave my legs cause I like the feel. I value empathy and cooperation much more than I value sports or competition. I have long nails (on one hand). I cook well and often.

I value my being female as more important than my being butch (read this as personal, I value in this in myself and am not imposing this on anyone else)

And I'll be having formal tea with a friend while others are having fun with that superbowl thing.

These area the ways I celebrate my butch femininity. YMMV

Have I been pressured to conform to some "Butch ideal" to tone down my femininity? Yes I have, many times, by both butches and femmes. Of late more by femmes.

My response to the pressure is, for the most part, to smile and say "no thank you".

That's it for the OP, but one other thing I feel compelled to say. I don't post often; in part because I don't have anything of value to add but more often because it just doesn't feel safe here.

Too often offense and insult occur, perhaps with good cause, sometimes not. If my opinion is in the minority, it's not safe to voice it, so I don't, and frankly it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I've felt this the entire time I've been on the planet, and it's okay I just wanted to put it out there. There's nothing to fix, and it's certainly not your job to make feel safe.

So I'll post now and again when I have something of value to add.

Oh My. Awesome Sunday morning read.

Several thoughts.....Keeping in mind I ID as a Lesbian.

Cats and sandwiches being able to be lesbians if they say they are is problematic on a couple of fronts....
a) I'm not sure about my cat, but I am pretty convinced my last sandwich did not have the ability to critically think and choose a sexual orientation.
b) To me, this argument sounds exactly like..."if gays can marry, then someone will think its OK to marry their goat."

Why do we give a fuck how other people ID, or for that matter...fuck? Why does that in any way affect us.

Why do we care if male IDd Butches flirt with Femmes? Clearly, its up to each individual Femme. Are we saying we poor delicate Femmes can't handle ourselves...or that we should be aghast if male oriented Butches or trans people find us sexy? If I'm on here flirting and talking lingerie or sex stuff...its because I want attention. Period. Hell, at 50, I'm damn glad people find me sexy. Hell Ya!! Female IDd, Male IDd, Femmes.....goats.

People who have a problem with specific groups being on this website and commenting are insecure and jealous and petty and weak and most of all...to quote the always fabulous Arwen...need to worry about what is within their own hula hoops. It continually fills me with wonder as to why people come on this site and get all upset that there are Butches and Femmes here...of all varieties. Look at the name of the fucking site. Gah.

Now.....on to Butch femininity....kisses to Nat!!!
For me...makeup is not a gendered thing and neither are clothes. Is makeup feminine specifically for me? No.
I'm not sure, for me, what I see as Butch feminity? Maybe I don't understand the question. Butch flamboyance? Butch Dandies? Artistic Butches? Butches who wear sequins? Love them all. Is that feminine to me? No. To me, its not gendered. Its Butch because a Butch chose that way to dress or be.

Am I making sense?

Appearances are just that.. 'Appearances'. I can't count the times I've been told I don't dress butch, my hair is not cut butch, a butch wouldn't do the things I do etc etc.
I have a very good friend who is butch and we have discussed this topic at length.
I, for a long time, questioned whether I was FTM because of an overpowering feeling of identifying as male. She embraces the woman she is. If you put us side by side you'd know in a heartbeat my friend is butch. Absolutely NO doubt about it, but she does not identify as male.
She is a brutally honest friend and I admire this in her. She said once that some butches wore men's underwear and she didn't go for that shit. I told her I wear men's underwear. She asked why?! I told her why then asked her if she wore girl panties. Some of our conversations were hilarious.
Over several summers we talked back and forth on this issue and then she said something that hit home for me. She said that first and foremost she was a woman and that the power of being a woman was to choose how she wanted to be in this life. Her choice, 'as a woman', was to be a butchy butch with all the trimmings she chose.
I understood from what she said that I didn't need to put masculinity into the definition of who/what I was.
It's not my fault they sell some of the clothing I like in the men's section!
We talked about strap on's and dildos and she does not strap on but I do. This does not mean I don't want my vagina! This does not mean I need to fill my jeans to prove a point. This does not mean I want a penis. I simply like how I feel when I strap on. It's a personal choice.
I am an older butch and grew up in a world where there were no words to define what I felt inside. The first word I understood was 'lesbian' and yes by golly I a that! Over the years the labels just keep coming. All in all I find labels extremely confusing. I personally have given up trying to define anybody based on appearances or behavior. What matters to me most now is who I am, what I'm made of in terms of character, who you are, what you're made of in terms of character and that they never take the labels off food cans. Nuff said for now :hangloose:

I'm Femme and I strap on.

I've dated Butches who like it and Butches who are not into it. It does not make any of us more or less anything.

I do like eating pussy, but as HBarbara so eloquently put it, I usually don't call it that. Do I have to do it to be sexually gratified. No.

Does this make the Butches who like being fucked feminine? NO.

If I date a Trans Guy, am I less Femme? No.

And another thing, I am tired of people telling other people who they can and can't be. Gah.

Appearances...well put!

I completely agree for that one point. Expanding ... which resonates for 95% of people of African Descent (or of darker skin tone) - regardless of country. As the example with Polish. Unless someone says there are Polish, I wouldn't know. They would be under the sub category of Caucasian. Times of changed a few more interracial mixes, but no matter what there are meaningful categories that still remain as such Black/African ...., some based upon regional ancestry but more base on what is 'seen', easily recognizable, by appearance where perceptions and assumptions rise. I could be a third generation American of African descent or a visitor from Sierra Leone. Most people will pre-judge (from stereotypical viewpoints etc). Pre-Judgeing happens from either side but more often than not towards those of African descent.

Labels in general carry a double edge sword. Be too specific and risk alienating. Be too broad loose sense of 'standards' (not the exact word I wanted to use - my mind just went blank).They are important, however can be misused or ill defined.

Appearance is variable that can make or break a label for many. Within the LGBT community is no exception.. From my experience I've been tagged butch soley on the way I 'look'. I have been criticized a few times for not 'behaving' butch enough. And my reply would be 'you made the assumption I was or should act butch based on my appearance. Not on who I am as a person'.

I use the term butch sparingly now - with an added disclaimer ;)

I think if it's a thread devoted to femmes and our thoughts about our bodies or what makes us feel sexy, having someone who is not femme come in and make creepy noises is annoying and even triggering for some. Harrassment does exist in our community -- in many forms. And I think we need to say as much. A lot of femmes do respond to those instances with a whoa, can you just go now. It's cool when folks groove on it. But if enough people feel like a jerk just walked into the changing room with her dick in her hand, then, yes, we should say something.

Agreed,

What I was trying to say is that we don't need anyone to protect us from male id Butches ogling us. If we don't want someone to ogle us, we can handle it ourselves. A dressing room at least gives the expectation of privacy. The Internet does not.

Excellent point.

Ummm.. A lesbian is someone who ID's as a lesbian?

a small interjection...
 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...he-other-girls


support if you can, and please share it along... ta

This is my latest video about the "gender policing" that happens to butch dykes.
Here's the link, in case i didnt get that right - http://youtu.be/q_58qgPqHqk

I love for Butch to be all woman and to me that is femininity. That a Butch can be a woman and be proud of herself.

The muscles, button-up shirts and guys clothes and it's that the femininity that attracts me.